What can be done to revive the MMO genre? Can it be revived? Is there any hope?

[Wretch]

Hold on, I'm confused - which one of you is right again?

Whoever actually reads these walls of texts is wrong. Whoever just laughs at the size of them or posts unrelatedly is right.

I go one better. I quote them and reply to an argument they never made but that I assumed they made without reading their post.

Is it possible to learn this power?

[Xenich]

You know, if it offends people so much, I don't have to post here.

FFS, I actually try to discuss things and people act like I am the problem here?

Ok... good luck with that, I have better things to do than entertain the bored.

[Lich]

You know, if it offends people so much, I don't have to post here.

FFS, I actually try to discuss things and people act like I am the problem here?

Ok... good luck with that, I have better things to do than entertain the bored.

work on your paragraphs

[rustys-name-is-kumar]

I have better things to do

well you play garbage grindathon mmorpgs like EQ so you actually dont

now continue typing several paragraphs i know i wont actually read ya piece of **** :3

[Norfleet]

Well, the core argument that started all of this was really about if a classic MMO could succeed.

I outlined the conditions objectively that provided support that it could within those constraints (ie Pantheon pledge numbers, anecdotal discussion with like players, number of people anticipating M&M for its specific style, etc...)

Well, obviously, you've put forth a compelling argument for whether or not it COULD succeed, but at this point, it becomes a matter of the rubber meeting the road. WILL it succeed? It seems as if these projects all suffer from a problem of actually materializing. The common element binding all of these projects is that they aren't actually real, and may, in fact, be cults like Scam Shitizen.

Then, we have to consider how one defines "success". If the title can manage to ultimately pay its operating costs and stay open, is it a success even if it fails to hit numbers we expect of a modern MMORPG, or even numbers of the old days? Does it need to win bigly, or is it enough to claim a niche? Of course, even achieving this may be tricky. I can't imagine the number of players interested in such a thing has actually grown. Not everyone who experienced or heard of the old days wishes to have this back, or is even still alive, after all. So the possible audience base is naturally smaller than it used to be. It can be no other way. On top of that, these games are not being produced to the old standards. They're being produced with modern assets, modern operating costs, and modern bloatware. That makes the entire thing that much more expensive to make and operate. At the same time, trying to charge people more money as a result is a tough sell. Modern games get around this by charging the old prices to a larger audience. But in this case, this larger audience doesn't exist: Time will have resulted in the attrition of said audience. People simply die. So is there actually still an audience, and can it sustain the increased costs that these things now have?

[NotAI]

The compleate woke developer of the future might try to revive MMOs by making an MMO about fisting horses; it's how PvP would work. Two players fight it out by finding a horse and fisting it, until one gets kicked. Then a long POWERFUL cinematic would play, the kind of thing that wins an academy award. It would be made with pixel art. The one that wins gets the mount. 8/10.

[Shillitron]

Whoever actually reads these walls of texts is wrong. Whoever just laughs at the size of them or posts unrelatedly is right.

I go one better. I quote them and reply to an argument they never made but that I assumed they made without reading their post.

Is it possible to learn this power?

Only with years seconds of practice.

[WhiteShark]

I don't mind people having those positions, but I find the defense of their positions a bit ********.

I can explain in objective detail why I think various older mechanics in play are important to that balance.

I like you, Xenich, but you're a sperg.
You're not vastly smarter than other people just because you lack some brain circuitry most people have.

Right now you're making the same arguments woke libtard game devs make when they ***** about other people not paying for their ****** pronoun games.

If other people don't like what you like, or like something you don't like, you won't be able to mathematically prove that they're wrong. You just have to smile and accept it.

You've missed his point. He called them stupid for not bothering to read his posts, but his central gripe is that people who don't understand the appeal of old school MMO design call for changes that ruin the design. I think he's made a good argument for why EQ and the like work, and it seems clear that nuschool design is a dead end. I don't personally enjoy either all that much once I get past the novelty factor, but that's because I don't feel the moment-to-moment gameplay tests me, and that's what I want out of a game.

@Xenich, I recommend not responding to the people who openly admit to not reading your posts.

[Finarfin]

I mean ******* will be *******. Xenich needs to ignore ******* for not even doing the most basic **** like reading. But I guess expecting that of troglodytes is too much asked. Also, what is GGS still doing here?

[Stack of Turtles]

You've missed his point. He called them stupid for not bothering to read his posts, but his central gripe is that people who don't understand the appeal of old school MMO design call for changes that ruin the design. I think he's made a good argument for why EQ and the like work, and it seems clear that nuschool design is a dead end. I don't personally enjoy either all that much once I get past the novelty factor, but that's because I don't feel the moment-to-moment gameplay tests me, and that's what I want out of a game.

The problem with this is that it's effectively the same argument that leftists make when they complain about normal people reviewing, curating, youtubing about, etc., their pronoun games: "these games aren't FOR you, chud, and you're ruining it for us by complaining!"

Xenich has convinced me with his argument that the market for his kind of "old-school MMO design" is not big enough to sustain the kind of game he wants, since devs always end up making changes to suit the preferences of a larger majority of players. It also seems likely that the current normie MMO market isn't very stable either, leaving the genre dead in the water for now.

It's not inconceivable that normie MMO players really don't know what they want and would enjoy a Xenichcore EQalike if they gave it a try; it's just a bad argument, just like it was a bad argument with Concord.

[WhiteShark]

The problem with this is that it's effectively the same argument that leftists make when they complain about normal people reviewing, curating, youtubing about, etc., their pronoun games: "these games aren't FOR you, chud, and you're ruining it for us by complaining!"

Xenich has convinced me with his argument that the market for his kind of "old-school MMO design" is not big enough to sustain the kind of game he wants, since devs always end up making changes to suit the preferences of a larger majority of players. It also seems likely that the current normie MMO market isn't very stable either, leaving the genre dead in the water for now.

It's not inconceivable that normie MMO players really don't know what they want and would enjoy a Xenichcore EQalike if they gave it a try; it's just a bad argument, just like it was a bad argument with Concord.

It's a fine argument. Attempting to cater to an audience other than the core one is how hobbies and genres become casualized and ruined. Hobbies aren't for everyone. Whether there are enough fans of old school MMO design to sustain a game catering to them, I don't know, but it doesn't seem there are many developers trying to find out. Developers make changes that alienate their core audience in an effort to capture more players all the time, even when continuing to cater to their core players was demonstrably sustainable. It's not fair to say that old school design principles were unsustainable just because WoW came in and inspired every developer to chase the casual crowd; that only proves that developers/publishers wanted more money, not that they couldn't get by otherwise.

People are free to criticize whatever they want, but criticizing an old school MMO for following old school principles is like complaining that turn based strategy games aren't real time. There's nothing wrong with turn based games; they just aren't for everyone.

[Stack of Turtles]

The problem with this is that it's effectively the same argument that leftists make when they complain about normal people reviewing, curating, youtubing about, etc., their pronoun games: "these games aren't FOR you, chud, and you're ruining it for us by complaining!"

Xenich has convinced me with his argument that the market for his kind of "old-school MMO design" is not big enough to sustain the kind of game he wants, since devs always end up making changes to suit the preferences of a larger majority of players. It also seems likely that the current normie MMO market isn't very stable either, leaving the genre dead in the water for now.

It's not inconceivable that normie MMO players really don't know what they want and would enjoy a Xenichcore EQalike if they gave it a try; it's just a bad argument, just like it was a bad argument with Concord.

It's a fine argument. Attempting to cater to an audience other than the core one is how hobbies and genres become casualized and ruined. Hobbies aren't for everyone. Whether there are enough fans of old school MMO design to sustain a game catering to them, I don't know, but it doesn't seem there are many developers trying to find out. Developers make changes that alienate their core audience in an effort to capture more players all the time, even when continuing to cater to their core players was demonstrably sustainable. It's not fair to say that old school design principles were unsustainable just because WoW came in and inspired every developer to chase the casual crowd; that only proves that developers/publishers wanted more money, not that they couldn't get by otherwise.

People are free to criticize whatever they want, but criticizing an old school MMO for following old school principles is like complaining that turn based strategy games aren't real time. There's nothing wrong with turn based games; they just aren't for everyone.

If I like real-time games and don't like turn-based games, it's entirely fine and reasonable for me to post a review on a turn-based game I tried saying I would have liked it if only it were real-time. That's an entirely valid opinion and there's no reason not to express it. Whether the developers care is another issue. If there are only like three people who like turn-based games and they stop turning a profit because everyone wants a real-time game instead, then yeah, devs who want to make money are going to start jumping ship to make real-time games instead. People who want turn-based games would have to lower their expectations to the level of cheap itch.io slop because a big studio can't afford to make them.

It's true that it's possible for devs to get wrong signals, too. If real-time fans are just a lot more vocal than turn-based fans, it might seem like there aren't enough turn-based fans to sustain a market. That's a good reason for turn-based fans to work harder to make their preferences known. But I'll be honest with you: when it keeps happening again and again over the entire MMO or strategy game landscape, I'm going to strongly suspect that the signals are basically right, just as I strongly suspect there isn't really a huge contingent of secret pronoun-game fans keeping their mouths shut and getting disappointed.

Under normal economic conditions, if most major players in an industry are going broke chasing after a market that doesn't really exist and neglecting one that does, that's a huge opportunity for someone with more realistic expectations to make a comfortable profit in the smaller niche. We see this happen in real life now and then. To be sure, people miss opportunities all the time; maybe nobody has bothered to do it right yet; but that's an argument for giving it a try. I certainly don't think the MMO team Xenich mentioned should quit. "Those filthy casuals just don't know what they want" is still a bad argument just like it is when leftists cry about people ruining their pronoun games.

[rustys-name-is-kumar]

Attempting to cater to an audience other than the core one is how hobbies and genres become casualized and ruined.

heh

the massively multiplayer online game genre has always wanted to appeal to a large potential playerbase as it ceases existence from being a proper mmo is it doesnt have the massive multiplayer aspect intact. how do you get that? not with 200 people on one or two servers, felipe jr. once upon a time eq, uo, dark age of camelot, and some others succeeded at this and then they plummeted off the cliff of relevancy once november 2004 hit.

mmos have always been a casualbait nesting ground because they are defined heavily by their population. unsurprisingly, numerous of these wannabe 0ld sk00l mmos have failed repeatedly because they are trying to get an audience that is partially filling up a catacomb irl or dont really give a **** and m&m will be no different. those games failed because their gameplay sucked even when they were new btw.

this isnt a "gatekeep ur hobbiez" moment, it's that mmos are either trying to be wow clones which fail or trying to be old eq clones which nosedive even harder. you're not reviving this by being a derivative and sloppily made imitation.

you're too in love with being perceived as a grognard tbh

[NotAI]

It's true that it's possible for devs to get wrong signals, too. If real-time fans are just a lot more vocal than turn-based fans, it might seem like there aren't enough turn-based fans to sustain a market. That's a good reason for turn-based fans to work harder to make their preferences known. But I'll be honest with you: when it keeps happening again and again over the entire MMO or strategy game landscape, I'm going to strongly suspect that the signals are basically right, just as I strongly suspect there isn't really a huge contingent of secret [this-type-of]-game fans keeping their mouths shut and getting disappointed.

Under normal economic conditions, if most major players in an industry are going broke chasing after a market that doesn't really exist and neglecting one that does, that's a huge opportunity for someone with more realistic expectations to make a comfortable profit in the smaller niche. We see this happen in real life now and then. To be sure, people miss opportunities all the time; maybe nobody has bothered to do it right yet; but that's an argument for giving it a try. I certainly don't think the MMO team Xenich mentioned should quit. "Those filthy casuals just don't know what they want" is still a bad argument...

Well sorta. There's a subtle issue. It is peculiar to history and to game production. It affects any market segment part of a long tail.

► Show Spoiler

LONG BORING ESSAY. It so happens, by historical accident, that all but a few core-type players (future devs) and developers who want to makes core games, are broke and low status.

Compared to casual players (future devs) and developers who want to make casual games.

You know who wants to go make core games? My hairdresser's son. He will go to a community college to get a game development degree. Well, right on.

You know who wants to go make core games? Some guy from rural alabama. With friends from west virginia. Cool. Go for it.

But then what?

People who accidentally have no capital and no social status, whether they are highly skilled or not, just a historical accident, cannot start to make products that require raising cash up front.

Raising up front becomes necessary when the cost exceeds what can probably be earned through working and saving.

What if the people who can raise that capital happen, by historical accident, not to like some genres of games much? Then nothing. Things get stuck.

Even if there really are a lot of (enough) prospective players who want that type of game, to probably make a nice profit, so what?

If somebody who can raise the capital does not want to make that type of product, you will be unlikely to persuade them today. Exist many different investments , with similar risks and rewards, to choose from, and nobody has to cater to any audience they might not be part of themselves, today.

There are plenty of other markets they loathe less.

The issue was that making a profit, paradoxically, was harder in the past. So people who might not be their own customer, or even loathed an audience, might still try to make products aimed at it. There were fewer profit opportunities. You took what was available and worked on it.

The paradox is, in a market that is doing okay or well, overall, profitability is not a powerful enough argument, especially from an accidentally low status person, to invite investment.

(We will call this the Bartle Argument. It also concern's the relative failure of the UK's computer industry compared to USA.)

Say's law (Smith's law, in fact! Say was just repeating Smith!) basically is what kicks in.

Whether or not there is a market opportunity is nearly irrelevant: if the entire group that can exploit that opportunity, who knows about it and has the skills to make the profit, has no capital at the time, and has such low status and networking, by sheer historical accident of how tastes are distributed, that they cannot earn or raise the capital needed to start, then they cannot compete with firms making products the target market segment despises but prefers to nothing at all. It might be easy to compete, but only if you can raise the capital. What if you can't can't? Whole regions get stuck in this trap for specific industries, for decades and centuries.

(2000) You wanna make a game? There is a market opportunity. Write a pitch. Take it to Microsoft. Ask for 2 lemons. They might give you 2 lemons. You hire 9 more guys, and make a game, they own it. The game got made, problem solved.

Nobody cares who you are or who you know, because you're asking for a bit. Michael Crichton shows up out of grad school, and says he wants to make a hollywood movie. He asks for 2 lemons. They look at him. Well, he's tall. Got that going for him. Also, also, he's, like, a doctor... Though that means he never made a film before. But he's just asking for 2 lemons. So they say yes. They tell him, he can't have Clint Eastwood, but he can have Yul Brynner. Off you go now and make your fuckin' film. Make that piece of ****, then bring back the cash.

(2025) You wanna make a game? There is a market opportunity. Write a pitch. Take it to Microsoft. Ask for 200 lemons. They tell you to go **** yourself. You go **** yourself. Problem remains unsolved.

[Stack of Turtles]

It's true that it's possible for devs to get wrong signals, too. If real-time fans are just a lot more vocal than turn-based fans, it might seem like there aren't enough turn-based fans to sustain a market. That's a good reason for turn-based fans to work harder to make their preferences known. But I'll be honest with you: when it keeps happening again and again over the entire MMO or strategy game landscape, I'm going to strongly suspect that the signals are basically right, just as I strongly suspect there isn't really a huge contingent of secret [this-type-of]-game fans keeping their mouths shut and getting disappointed.

Under normal economic conditions, if most major players in an industry are going broke chasing after a market that doesn't really exist and neglecting one that does, that's a huge opportunity for someone with more realistic expectations to make a comfortable profit in the smaller niche. We see this happen in real life now and then. To be sure, people miss opportunities all the time; maybe nobody has bothered to do it right yet; but that's an argument for giving it a try. I certainly don't think the MMO team Xenich mentioned should quit. "Those filthy casuals just don't know what they want" is still a bad argument...

Well sorta. There's a subtle issue. It is peculiar to history and to game production. It affects any market segment part of a long tail.

► Show Spoiler

LONG BORING ESSAY. It so happens, by historical accident, that all but a few core-type players (future devs) and developers who want to makes core games, are broke and low status.

Compared to casual players (future devs) and developers who want to make casual games.

You know who wants to go make core games? My hairdresser's son. He will go to a community college to get a game development degree. Well, right on.

You know who wants to go make core games? Some guy from rural alabama. With friends from west virginia. Cool. Go for it.

But then what?

People who accidentally have no capital and no social status, whether they are highly skilled or not, just a historical accident, cannot start to make products that require raising cash up front.

Raising up front becomes necessary when the cost exceeds what can probably be earned through working and saving.

What if the people who can raise that capital happen, by historical accident, not to like some genres of games much? Then nothing. Things get stuck.

Even if there really are a lot of (enough) prospective players who want that type of game, to probably make a nice profit, so what?

If somebody who can raise the capital does not want to make that type of product, you will be unlikely to persuade them today. Exist many different investments , with similar risks and rewards, to choose from, and nobody has to cater to any audience they might not be part of themselves, today.

There are plenty of other markets they loathe less.

The issue was that making a profit, paradoxically, was harder in the past. So people who might not be their own customer, or even loathed an audience, might still try to make products aimed at it. There were fewer profit opportunities. You took what was available and worked on it.

The paradox is, in a market that is doing okay or well, overall, profitability is not a powerful enough argument, especially from an accidentally low status person, to invite investment.

(We will call this the Bartle Argument. It also concern's the relative failure of the UK's computer industry compared to USA.)

Say's law (Smith's law, in fact! Say was just repeating Smith!) basically is what kicks in.

Whether or not there is a market opportunity is nearly irrelevant: if the entire group that can exploit that opportunity, who knows about it and has the skills to make the profit, has no capital at the time, and has such low status and networking, by sheer historical accident of how tastes are distributed, that they cannot earn or raise the capital needed to start, then they cannot compete with firms making products the target market segment despises but prefers to nothing at all. It might be easy to compete, but only if you can raise the capital. What if you can't can't? Whole regions get stuck in this trap for specific industries, for decades and centuries.

(2000) You wanna make a game? There is a market opportunity. Write a pitch. Take it to Microsoft. Ask for 2 lemons. They might give you 2 lemons. You hire 9 more guys, and make a game, they own it. The game got made, problem solved.

Nobody cares who you are or who you know, because you're asking for a bit. Michael Crichton shows up out of grad school, and says he wants to make a hollywood movie. He asks for 2 lemons. They look at him. Well, he's tall. Got that going for him. Also, also, he's, like, a doctor... Though that means he never made a film before. But he's just asking for 2 lemons. So they say yes. They tell him, he can't have Clint Eastwood, but he can have Yul Brynner. Off you go now and make your fuckin' film. Make that piece of ****, then bring back the cash.

(2025) You wanna make a game? There is a market opportunity. Write a pitch. Take it to Microsoft. Ask for 200 lemons. They tell you to go **** yourself. You go **** yourself. Problem remains unsolved.

I'm not into communism.

[Wretch]

This terrible genre died a very deserved death. Love to see it. Nothing is bringing it back. It was always terrible and was carried by the fact that early interactions online were a novelty and the quality of people was a hundredfold what it is now. Just running around in a low quality virtual world with interesting and kind people from around the world was enough to grab people. Now with streamer cults, demoniacs, and predatory sexual deviants making up the majority of internet communities and individuals there will never be another successful mmo.

These ****** life replacement simulators will go further into the realm of simulating sex and relationships instead.

[NotAI]

This terrible genre died a very deserved death.
These ****** life replacement simulators will go further into the realm of simulating sex and relationships instead.

What you mean go further? Furcadia was released in 1996.

[Norfleet]

The problem with this is that it's effectively the same argument that leftists make when they complain about normal people reviewing, curating, youtubing about, etc., their pronoun games: "these games aren't FOR you, chud, and you're ruining it for us by complaining!"

And yet, those very same people then complain when said chuds do not buy the game, resulting in it failing.

It's not inconceivable that normie MMO players really don't know what they want and would enjoy a Xenichcore EQalike if they gave it a try; it's just a bad argument, just like it was a bad argument with Concord.

This weird notion that people somehow don't know what they like until they've tried it makes no sense to me. I have a solid internal model of what it is that I like and can predict with extremely high accuracy what I WON'T like, because I know it works on a simple strike system: Once something has hit enough points for what I don't like it, I already hate it, and as my opinion can never be improved, since things can only ever get worse as entropy must always increase, there is no chance I will not hate it.

[NotAI]

It's not inconceivable that normie MMO players really don't know what they want and would enjoy a Xenichcore EQalike if they gave it a try; it's just a bad argument, just like it was a bad argument with Concord.

This weird notion that people somehow don't know what they like until they've tried it makes no sense to me. I have a solid internal model of what it is that I like and can predict with extremely high accuracy what I WON'T like, because I know it works on a simple strike system: Once something has hit enough points for what I don't like it, I already hate it, and as my opinion can never be improved, since things can only ever get worse as entropy must always increase, there is no chance I will not hate it.

It is more or less common depending on type of product. The most common cases are probably food.

I know and you know a lot of people who hate sushi just because the idea of eating raw fish feels off in their mind.

Yet they happily munch sushi when they don't notice what it is they grabbed or eat it blind. Then think it's tasty wow, what is this? Where has it been?

Likewise they eat a bunch of it if everybody else is eating it. And say: yummy wow. It seems safer to them, even though the safety is the same.

Several in my family are like that, and specifically, when eating it blind, the most expensive sushi, fugu, is what they like the most. The chef puts it as sashimi in a bowl with sauce? And it's not obviously raw. They eat it fast and order more! Wallet cries.

The argument mostly got thrown around by Alan Kay in comp sci, and in econ it began with Thomas Schelling, who argued preference-like behavior is emergent from simpler preference rules that interact. Like you don't prefer to sit in any particular row, but prefer to sit next to at least a few other people and not in the first row, being still the most self contained example. The result is where specifically, in a room, people actually prefer to sit is pretty unpredictable.

There is also more complex complexity with preferences: you don't want specific things but seek a dealmaker quality in a thing while avoiding any dealbreaker qualities.

You might accept any product of type from a brand that you know, when eating in a city you are in the first time. For specific things, preferences also change by experience. For specific qualities, more stable, but can also change by experience.

In general however you know what you want, a specific thing, what else you want, hence what you are willing to forego to get what you want more. And it doesn't change much. All that changes is your prediction of whether that product is that thing or not really that thing, not as described.

Turn based is the best example. If it's already popular, you can get mainstream to play turn based. If it's not heavily marketed, you can't get mainstream to play turn based. It's like sushi.

All this crap is the substance of marketing, if it has any substance.

[Stack of Turtles]

I know and you know a lot of people who hate sushi just because the idea of eating raw fish feels off in their mind.

Yet they happily munch sushi when they don't notice what it is they grabbed or eat it blind. Then think it's tasty wow, what is this? Where has it been?

Likewise they eat a bunch of it if everybody else is eating it. And say: yummy wow. It seems safer to them, even though the safety is the same.

Several in my family are like that, and specifically, when eating it blind, the most expensive sushi, fugu, is what they like the most. The chef puts it as sashimi in a bowl with sauce? And it's not obviously raw. They eat it fast and order more! Wallet cries.

As if anyone in your family would eat something without asking if it's kosher first.

[Acrux]

munch sushi when they don't notice what it is they grabbed or eat it blind.

This has never, ever happened. Ever.

[NotAI]

munch sushi when they don't notice what it is they grabbed or eat it blind.

This has never, ever happened. Ever.

Pretty mundane, though. Wait. You mean, you never witnessed a "Is this halal?" situation with your own very eyes? In front of you? Missing out!

I'm talking about a bowl with raw fish and other stuff. Mixed. Pu Pu Sai Kai w/ Kuum is what it's called on the menu, then they order it and eat it. It can't look like usual sushi, duh.

Even just sashimi with stuff on it. "Is this raw?" "Dunno." "Oookay. Wooow, Pu Pu Sai Kai is pretty good. I wonder what this is? What is it?"

The same sense as the meme that exaggerates it:

"Stirfried Pork Won Mu Kaka Pai Pai...is it halal?" "What?" "..." "Is Pork Won Mu Kaka halal?" "Yeah." "..." "..." "...Yes." "Then I'll have that." "...How was it?" "Pretty good."

The media is the message and the form is the food.

They will order it because they have no clue what they are ordering, and can't read. If it looks like mush, they'll eat it, like it, despite saying they hate ew raw fish.

► Show Spoiler

Never underestimate people who don't eat out frequently for whatever reason and have no clue what is what. There's even a meme about this on...that channel...what's it called...viva la dirt league. A lot of people who order stuff in a restaurant have no clue what they ordered, can't pronounce it, and have no idea what they're eating.

Food just was never a big thing to them, it's not their hobby. Half the planet eats raw liver while the other half eats very conservatively.

[Acrux]

munch sushi when they don't notice what it is they grabbed or eat it blind.

This has never, ever happened. Ever.

Pretty mundane, though. Wait. You mean, you never witnessed a "Is this halal?" situation with your own very eyes? In front of you? Missing out!

I'm talking about a bowl with raw fish and other stuff. Mixed. Pu Pu Sai Kai w/ Kuum is what it's called on the menu, then they order it and eat it. It can't look like usual sushi, duh.

Even just sashimi with stuff on it. "Is this raw?" "Dunno." "Oookay. Wooow, Pu Pu Sai Kai is pretty good. I wonder what this is? What is it?"

The same sense as the meme that exaggerates it:

"Stirfried Pork Won Mu Kaka Pai Pai...is it halal?" "What?" "..." "Is Pork Won Mu Kaka halal?" "Yeah." "..." "..." "...Yes." "Then I'll have that." "...How was it?" "Pretty good."

The media is the message and the form is the food.

They will order it because they have no clue what they are ordering, and can't read. If it looks like mush, they'll eat it, like it, despite saying they hate ew raw fish.

► Show Spoiler

Never underestimate people who don't eat out frequently for whatever reason and have no clue what is what. There's even a meme about this on...that channel...what's it called...viva la dirt league. A lot of people who order stuff in a restaurant have no clue what they ordered, can't pronounce it, and have no idea what they're eating.

Food just was never a big thing to them, it's not their hobby. Half the planet eats raw liver while the other half eats very conservatively.

I live in a first world country, so no, I've never seen anything like that first hand.

[Norfleet]

I know and you know a lot of people who hate sushi just because the idea of eating raw fish feels off in their mind.

I don't know anyone like that, actually. Probably because I don't hang around such people. Now me, I don't personally care for sushi, not because it is a raw fish, but because it is overly complicated and bothersome. I would rather just eat my raw fish as-is, without the need to torture it in various ways. Didn't your momma tell you not to play with your food? Eat your ******* fish.

There is also more complex complexity with preferences: you don't want specific things but seek a dealmaker quality in a thing while avoiding any dealbreaker qualities.

That's pretty much how I work, yes. I don't see that as complicated. Like people in the HQ IRC thought I didn't actually play games because I wouldn't play any of their games, because all of their games contained one of my explicitly listed dealbreakers. WhiteSquare, however, found out that I would, in fact, play just about anything that didn't hit one of my exactly three dealbreakers.

All this crap is the substance of marketing, if it has any substance.

I don't really get marketing. It doesn't work on me and I block all the ads. I don't like buying things, period, and I won't play any game that requires me to buy it. That's one of my 3 dealbreakers right there. If you're telling me I have to buy it, it's over. I don't care what else you have to say, that's a dealbreaker. The other two were that I won't install anything that would compromise system security, like bundled rootkit spyware. If your game requires this, no deal. The final thing is that it actually has to run on my aging potato, because if I can't run it, then I can't play it.

[Stack of Turtles]

munch sushi when they don't notice what it is they grabbed or eat it blind.

This has never, ever happened. Ever.

Pretty mundane, though. Wait. You mean, you never witnessed a "Is this halal?" situation with your own very eyes? In front of you? Missing out!

I'm talking about a bowl with raw fish and other stuff. Mixed. Pu Pu Sai Kai w/ Kuum is what it's called on the menu, then they order it and eat it. It can't look like usual sushi, duh.

Even just sashimi with stuff on it. "Is this raw?" "Dunno." "Oookay. Wooow, Pu Pu Sai Kai is pretty good. I wonder what this is? What is it?"

The same sense as the meme that exaggerates it:

"Stirfried Pork Won Mu Kaka Pai Pai...is it halal?" "What?" "..." "Is Pork Won Mu Kaka halal?" "Yeah." "..." "..." "...Yes." "Then I'll have that." "...How was it?" "Pretty good."

The media is the message and the form is the food.

They will order it because they have no clue what they are ordering, and can't read. If it looks like mush, they'll eat it, like it, despite saying they hate ew raw fish.

► Show Spoiler

Never underestimate people who don't eat out frequently for whatever reason and have no clue what is what. There's even a meme about this on...that channel...what's it called...viva la dirt league. A lot of people who order stuff in a restaurant have no clue what they ordered, can't pronounce it, and have no idea what they're eating.

Food just was never a big thing to them, it's not their hobby. Half the planet eats raw liver while the other half eats very conservatively.

Insane that you know people like this and think it's a good thing.

[Acrux]

It doesn't work on me

Everyone on earth says ads don't work on them. Spoiler:

► Show Spoiler

they do.

[Wretch]

It doesn't work on me

Everyone on earth says ads don't work on them. Spoiler:

► Show Spoiler

they do.

Ads cannot work on me because I attack all electronics that speak to me without consent (i have and will never consent to them)

[Norfleet]

Everyone on earth says ads don't work on them. Spoiler:

► Show Spoiler

they do.

Really? Then why is it that I don't actually buy anything? Clearly they must not be working if they haven't convinced me to actually buy their product. All my **** is either self-made, generic, used, or Cold War surplus. None of this **** was obviously advertised because companies don't make money when I loot a used item out of the dump or buy old Soviet surplus.

[rustys-name-is-kumar]

this topic was cooler when xenrich was melting down

[NotAI]

I live in a first world country, so no, I've never seen anything like that first hand.

In third world countries people who care about halal know what halal means. In first world countries, it's just a matter of statistics. Eat out more with different people.

There is no correlation; people can still do this even if they have an advanced degree.

Last week:

"Does...the...Shrimp Fu Wu Pai Pai contain...shrimp?" "Yes." "But does it contain...shrimp?" "It has shrimp. It is Shrimp Fu Mu." "...You're certain? It has a lot of shrimp?" "Yes. It is Fu Wu with Shrimp. It has shrimp." "So it does really have shrimp? Or is that just what it's called?" "Yes. It has shrimp." "How many shrimp?" "Uh. Many shrimp." "Well, I don't eat shrimp...Can I have it with something else?" "...If you see on the menu, right here, you can have Chicken Fu Mu, Pork Fu Mu, Beef Fu Mu Pai Pai." "Well, I'll have Pork Fu Mu Pai Pai then...but does it have rice?" "Yes. Pai Pai has rice." "No rice. No. I don't eat rice. Do you have garlic mashed potatoes instead?" "This is Chinese restaurant. We don't have garlic mashed potatoes. We have no potatoes!" said the waiter, obviously offended. Then: "Brown rice fine?" "Um... Okay." "We have brown rice." "Okay, I'll have brown rice." "Thank you. With brown rice." "Oh. Also please make it not spicy." "But Pai Pai is spicy. It is spicy sauce." "Then please give me the Pai Pai...without um like the Pai Pai." "But...you want..."

I'm just sitting there, watching this, JFK. It's a little bit funny though.

It's not quite a "Is this halal?" moment but it's recent.

I recall Fry and Laurie made fun of this **** years ago and nothing has changed. Lots of people are...bad at eating...imagine that.