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arisen wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 19:48
While it's logical, I still care about aesthetical part more than realistic one. Besides, what kind of twisted torture might turn an elf into a *****?

I don't agree with the part that Shar's torture would've aged them that badly in such a short period of time either.
It was just a convenient / dumb excuse to make Male Elf into an old chinese guy (again, cause Cazador wasn't enough) and to make a motherly character into a grandma. Both have unique faces — by the way — for the characters that you get to interact with 55 seconds tops.

Arnell is a mature Elf with wrinkles, but he aged with elven grace.
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.

► Show Spoiler

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06

arisen wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 19:48
While it's logical, I still care about aesthetical part more than realistic one. Besides, what kind of twisted torture might turn an elf into a *****?
I don't agree with the part that Shar's torture would've aged them that badly in such a short period of time either.
It was just a convenient / dumb excuse to make Male Elf into an old chinese guy (again, cause Cazador wasn't enough)

But that's exactly what I meant? Anyway, thank you for fixing Larian's ********

arisen wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:20
But that's exactly what I meant?

Oh, my bad. I meant, I agree with you not agreeing with that ********.
I'm too sleepy to function.

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 18:40
Silver will post screenshots later I’m sure, but I remember them being changed to look like they’re actually the age they’re supposed to as a Human and Elf. Like, mom was aged but not a grandma like vanilla, dad less aged since he’s an Elf

Just an idea, make the male a slightly aged human, and the female an elf.

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.

That take is so bad that i had to register just to point out the severity of your misconceptions. Emmeline is a human who has a daughter that ATLEAST 40 years old (maybe older), that makes Emmeline 60-80 years old. How do you think she should look, especially after a few decades in sharran dungeons? a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment is EXACTLY what she is, and that the whole point of her character, part of SH drama of how she missed the life of her family, how she waster her youth on sharan crap and how some things can't be fixed

Anyways, thanks for the mod

but don't rape the lore anymore mkay? That change should be aborted, everyone crying about isobel, but milf Emmeline is a black woman as Elminster level of sin

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06
Arnell is a mature Elf with wrinkles, but he aged with elven grace.
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.

Emmeline should at least have black hair. What the new changes are implying is that Shadowheart's hair is not naturally black, but dyed it black for her goth girl phase. And that phase apparently started before she met the Sharran cult because she had black hair in that memory cutscene. One of the parents needs to have black hair and since the dad is apparently a high elf, Emmeline should be the candidate.

What was the rationale behind changing Oprheus? I thought he looked pretty tough.

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:04
What was the rationale behind changing Oprheus? I thought he looked pretty tough.

@loregamer will take some convincing to make him bald again.

Lancaster wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:18
@loregamer will take some convincing to make him bald again.

Yeah, this mod has way too many changes based on the authors' autistic and highly subjective views on how NPCs should look. Not recommended, but the new drow look great.

Wasn’t Orpheus bugged in vanilla? His hair is flipped upside down!

I also noticed that that one weapon smith was also given hair due to autism when he looked much better bald. Way to ruin a mod. And that's not even mentioning all those Duergar and Viconia that were made white, uh excuse me "light grey"

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:04
What was the rationale behind changing Oprheus? I thought he looked pretty tough.

I'd have to check distribution spreadsheet and/or have @orinEsque and @Silver confirm, but I'm pretty sure facial hair for Githyanki is supposed to be excetionally rare, if not outright removed. BBA also removed facial hair from Gith:

SniperChris wrote: ↑ September 2nd, 2023, 00:48
Baldur's Better Aesthetics is an attempt to make Baldur's Gate 3 look more like Faerûn as we know it. More Dwarves will have beards, more Duergar will be bald (including the women!), and fewer Githyanki will be sporting big ol' whiskers.

But with Orpheus, I think when you get rid of the beard and keep him bald, then he looks bad

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:39
I also noticed that that one weapon smith was also given hair due to autism when he looked much better bald.

Dunno which NPC you're talking about

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:45

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:04
What was the rationale behind changing Oprheus? I thought he looked pretty tough.
I'd have to check distribution spreadsheet and/or have @orinEsque and @Silver confirm, but I'm pretty sure facial hair for Githyanki is supposed to be excetionally rare, if not outright removed. BBA also removed facial hair from Gith:
SniperChris wrote: ↑ September 2nd, 2023, 00:48
Baldur's Better Aesthetics is an attempt to make Baldur's Gate 3 look more like Faerûn as we know it. More Dwarves will have beards, more Duergar will be bald (including the women!), and fewer Githyanki will be sporting big ol' whiskers.
But with Orpheus, I think when you get rid of the beard and keep him bald, then he looks bad

Factually false, Gith have had beards ever since Dak'kon and Orpheus' beard is perfectly lore accurate. The problem with the other beards is that they don't fit the Gith style of facial hair so if you wanted to be lore accurate you'd have to make a selection of Gith exclusive beard styles, not remove beards altogether.

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:47
Dunno which NPC you're talking about

This guy https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Gyldro_Angleiron
You spergs gave him shoulder length hair and it looks awful.

Humbaba is oddly protective over bald characters...

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:51
You spergs gave him shoulder length hair and it looks awful.

I just checked and his entry wasn't manually overwritten but one of the friendly fires that got scripted over

@orinEsque visual id is 19609689-b3e4-5774-43d3-191a561cf685 incase you wanna add him to exceptions

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:56
I just checked and his entry wasn't manually overwritten but one of the friendly fires that got scripted over

@orinEsque visual id is 19609689-b3e4-5774-43d3-191a561cf685 incase you wanna add him to exceptions

Give him an afro instead.

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:52
Humbaba is oddly protective over bald characters...

If you cared about lore accuracy as much as you pretend to then you'd have left the bald prince well alone. Tons of Gith are bald and always have been.

Pushes aside hair from my eyes to read this post

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:23
Yeah, this mod has way too many changes based on the authors' autistic and highly subjective views on how NPCs should look.

Really seems like it in several parts

bald erasure...

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06

arisen wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 19:48
While it's logical, I still care about aesthetical part more than realistic one. Besides, what kind of twisted torture might turn an elf into a *****?
I don't agree with the part that Shar's torture would've aged them that badly in such a short period of time either.
It was just a convenient / dumb excuse to make Male Elf into an old chinese guy (again, cause Cazador wasn't enough) and to make a motherly character into a grandma. Both have unique faces — by the way — for the characters that you get to interact with 55 seconds tops.

Arnell is a mature Elf with wrinkles, but he aged with elven grace.
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.
► Show Spoiler
Don't remember why Arnell doesn't have black hair, but he'll get it back for the update.
UPD: Okay, I remember now. Cause he's a High Elf and they don't have black hair.

Shadowheart is like 40, so Emmeline should be at the absolute minimum in her late fifties, and could easily be in her late sixties.

A 60+ year old human woman kept in a dungeon with no access to makeup or hair dye will absolutely look like a grandma, even ignoring the torture. She's also a working-class woman in a pseudomedieval setting.

Regarding dad, I agree that the raven black hair looks and is wrong, but that's it. He never struck me as Asian like the other Chinese elves in the game; he just has narrow eyes, a bit like Paul Newman, and his nose, mouth, facial shape are white.

Elon Musk's eyes look 200% more Chinese than Shadowdad's and the dude doesn't have a drop of Oriental blood in him.

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:45

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:04
What was the rationale behind changing Oprheus? I thought he looked pretty tough.
I'd have to check distribution spreadsheet and/or have @orinEsque and @Silver confirm, but I'm pretty sure facial hair for Githyanki is supposed to be excetionally rare, if not outright removed. BBA also removed facial hair from Gith:
SniperChris wrote: ↑ September 2nd, 2023, 00:48
Baldur's Better Aesthetics is an attempt to make Baldur's Gate 3 look more like Faerûn as we know it. More Dwarves will have beards, more Duergar will be bald (including the women!), and fewer Githyanki will be sporting big ol' whiskers.
But with Orpheus, I think when you get rid of the beard and keep him bald, then he looks bad

I did not remove facial hair from Orpheus because he's supposed to be unique and super old. However, time does not pass in the Astral Plane, so you can't really use that as a justification why he has a big old beard. You should try putting different beards on him and see how it looks.

They started giving Githyanki facial hair in 4e (and then with a rule that they don't seem to grow mustaches - only whispy beards). I'll post some depictions below. You could argue some of the 1e and 2e gith had "sideburns" but it's really just head hair grown out and allowed to droop in front of the ears.

The first Githyanki

The second Githyanki (slightly less goblin - also when they REALLY emphasized the disgusting elbow tumors)

The third Githyanki. There was a radical change to make Githyanki less obviously monstrous in 4e, and that's when they got facial hair. (Hey, look, it's Laezel!)

And this became their definitive appearance going forward because we wanted to let players imaging having sex with them (and playing as them, I guess).

For what it's worth, Githzerai (which I'm pretty sure Orpheus is supposed to be) have long been depicted as bald and with whispy beards (no mustaches). Makes them vaguely Shaolin monk-like.

SniperChris wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 12:06

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:45

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:04
What was the rationale behind changing Oprheus? I thought he looked pretty tough.
I'd have to check distribution spreadsheet and/or have @orinEsque and @Silver confirm, but I'm pretty sure facial hair for Githyanki is supposed to be excetionally rare, if not outright removed. BBA also removed facial hair from Gith:
SniperChris wrote: ↑ September 2nd, 2023, 00:48
Baldur's Better Aesthetics is an attempt to make Baldur's Gate 3 look more like Faerûn as we know it. More Dwarves will have beards, more Duergar will be bald (including the women!), and fewer Githyanki will be sporting big ol' whiskers.
But with Orpheus, I think when you get rid of the beard and keep him bald, then he looks bad
I did not remove facial hair from Orpheus because he's supposed to be unique and super old. However, time does not pass in the Astral Plane, so you can't really use that as a justification why he has a big old beard. You should try putting different beards on him and see how it looks.

They started giving Githyanki facial hair in 4e (and then with a rule that they don't seem to grow mustaches - only whispy beards). I'll post some depictions below. You could argue some of the 1e and 2e gith had "sideburns" but it's really just head hair grown out and allowed to droop in front of the ears.

The first Githyanki

The second Githyanki (slightly less goblin - also when they REALLY emphasized the disgusting elbow tumors)

The third Githyanki. There was a radical change to make Githyanki less obviously monstrous in 4e, and that's when they got facial hair. (Hey, look, it's Laezel!)

And this became their definitive appearance going forward because we wanted to let players imaging having sex with them (and playing as them, I guess).

For what it's worth, Githzerai (which I'm pretty sure Orpheus is supposed to be) have long been depicted as bald and with whispy beards (no mustaches). Makes them vaguely Shaolin monk-like.

Anything in the lore why original githzerai had human noses but not gityanki?

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06

arisen wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 19:48
While it's logical, I still care about aesthetical part more than realistic one. Besides, what kind of twisted torture might turn an elf into a *****?
I don't agree with the part that Shar's torture would've aged them that badly in such a short period of time either.
It was just a convenient / dumb excuse to make Male Elf into an old chinese guy (again, cause Cazador wasn't enough) and to make a motherly character into a grandma. Both have unique faces — by the way — for the characters that you get to interact with 55 seconds tops.

Arnell is a mature Elf with wrinkles, but he aged with elven grace.
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.
► Show Spoiler
Don't remember why Arnell doesn't have black hair, but he'll get it back for the update.
UPD: Okay, I remember now. Cause he's a High Elf and they don't have black hair.

Shadowheart is at least 48 years old.
Assuming Emmeline got pregnant at 15 (very healthy and believable for medieval setting), that would make her at minimum 63 years old.

It's okay to admit that you didn't know. However, this isn't a case of catering to people's subjective preferences on what to change and what not to. Emmeline should look like a woman in her 60s and she doesn't in your mod. That's a bug that needs to be fixed. Simply reverting her to her original look would be the quickest, easiest, and most accurate option.

Emmeline

Average White Woman In Her 60s

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 18:40
Silver will post screenshots later I’m sure, but I remember them being changed to look like they’re actually the age they’re supposed to as a Human and Elf. Like, mom was aged but not a grandma like vanilla, dad less aged since he’s an Elf

This is wrong. Mom looks 20 years too young in the current mod.

SniperChris wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 12:06
They started giving Githyanki facial hair in 4e (and then with a rule that they don't seem to grow mustaches - only whispy beards)

This is untrue, like I said Dak'kon back in '99 had facial hair. Neither he nor any gith in PST looked "monstrous" either. There's no issue with Orpheus having a lore accurate beard even if he isn't a Githzerai.

KANONYMUSE wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 14:04
This is wrong. Mom looks 20 years too young in the current mod.

You don't get it, Shar was nice enough to have Shadowmom remain sexy during all that torture.

Romeo wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 09:09

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06
Arnell is a mature Elf with wrinkles, but he aged with elven grace.
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.
Emmeline should at least have black hair. What the new changes are implying is that Shadowheart's hair is not naturally black, but dyed it black for her goth girl phase. And that phase apparently started before she met the Sharran cult because she had black hair in that memory cutscene. One of the parents needs to have black hair and since the dad is apparently a high elf, Emmeline should be the candidate.

Women in their 60s generally start graying quite severely.

Demonic Fate wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 12:04

Silver wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 04:06

arisen wrote: ↑ April 29th, 2025, 19:48
While it's logical, I still care about aesthetical part more than realistic one. Besides, what kind of twisted torture might turn an elf into a *****?
I don't agree with the part that Shar's torture would've aged them that badly in such a short period of time either.
It was just a convenient / dumb excuse to make Male Elf into an old chinese guy (again, cause Cazador wasn't enough) and to make a motherly character into a grandma. Both have unique faces — by the way — for the characters that you get to interact with 55 seconds tops.

Arnell is a mature Elf with wrinkles, but he aged with elven grace.
Emmeline is a mature woman, not a granny who's about to kick the bucket any moment.
► Show Spoiler
Don't remember why Arnell doesn't have black hair, but he'll get it back for the update.
UPD: Okay, I remember now. Cause he's a High Elf and they don't have black hair.

Shadowheart is like 40, so Emmeline should be at the absolute minimum in her late fifties, and could easily be in her late sixties.

A 60+ year old human woman kept in a dungeon with no access to makeup or hair dye will absolutely look like a grandma, even ignoring the torture. She's also a working-class woman in a pseudomedieval setting.

Regarding dad, I agree that the raven black hair looks and is wrong, but that's it. He never struck me as Asian like the other Chinese elves in the game; he just has narrow eyes, a bit like Paul Newman, and his nose, mouth, facial shape are white.

Elon Musk's eyes look 200% more Chinese than Shadowdad's and the dude doesn't have a drop of Oriental blood in him.

She spent 40 years with the Sharrans after being abducted during her rite of passage. She would've been 8 years old in that case, since there aren't any earlier rites of passage in the historical record DnD pulls from for its lore. Shadowheart is 48 years old at the time of the game.

loregamer wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:56

Humbaba wrote: ↑ April 30th, 2025, 10:51
You spergs gave him shoulder length hair and it looks awful.
I just checked and his entry wasn't manually overwritten but one of the friendly fires that got scripted over

@orinEsque visual id is 19609689-b3e4-5774-43d3-191a561cf685 incase you wanna add him to exceptions

sure

Arnell is going to stay younger looking and with a different head, cause his vanilla one is very oriental.
Regarding Emmeline, she'll be reverted to looking older, but with black-gray hair.
As for alleged Shart's older sister:

Together they had a single daughter Jenevelle Hallowleaf.
Emmeline always hoped to have more children, but that was never to be.

The mention of Shart sister is traceable only through early game assets that Larian probably scrapped and never used.

I'm not one to never admit mistakes or anything like that. Emmeline was made younger cause she looked way too old, even for ~60 something woman. Ana because we wanted to use vanilla heads on more NPCs, so it was an edit I kept coming back to, unsure if it was okay or not (unlike Arnell), even though I liked her younger look-wise.
She's going to be updated in 2.0 though, so calm your horses. And I'm off to rape more lore.

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