Loghain was the good guy, actually.

[fkirenicus]

I preferred Qunari as tall grey men. I actually think the horns and **** is cringe and autistic

Qunari without horns are being viewed as special in qunari society, almost like they are destined for greatness. WoT 1 I think speaks about this.

There are dozens of them in DAO and they're all chump mercenaries and bandits. Dumb retcon.

Well, yes, probably - but I think Gaider or some other said that graphical (and probably artistical) limitations made them decide to drop horns in DAO (helmet issues). They were meant to have horns, most of them. Let's try to pretend we see horns at least?

[J1M]

That guy says a lot of things and attempts to rewrite history. I am confused as to why you want to treat him as an authoritative source of information. No DA:O concept art with horns = no they weren't meant to have horns.

It can also be true that adding them was a good idea, but that's a separate topic.

[TKVNC]

Qunari without horns are being viewed as special in qunari society, almost like they are destined for greatness. WoT 1 I think speaks about this.

There are dozens of them in DAO and they're all chump mercenaries and bandits. Dumb retcon.

Well, yes, probably - but I think Gaider or some other said that graphical (and probably artistical) limitations made them decide to drop horns in DAO (helmet issues). They were meant to have horns, most of them. Let's try to pretend we see horns at least?

Honestly it's not even an argument, he just used that as an excuse - there's legitimately no reason for them not to have had horns in Origins if they were meant to - you just rig it to the head bone on the skeleton.

It's a lame and gay retcon.

[TKVNC]

In fact here is Sten's concept art. **** those horns look really good!

[PixiGreen]

That guy says a lot of things and attempts to rewrite history. I am confused as to why you want to treat him as an authoritative source of information. No DA:O concept art with horns = no they weren't meant to have horns.

It can also be true that adding them was a good idea, but that's a separate topic.

My point exactly! The Qunari lore was not well established at the beginning, they came to the final look only in DA2 but that look is good! And accompanying fully developed lore is even better. In DAI they butchered that lore (actually, they butchered every pice of lore there was, elves and mages included) but at the DA2 stage it was still good.

Gaider is a lousy source of information, true. As his "coming out of the closet" progressed, his amnesia progressed too. But he has to remember something. I would not trust a word from him regarding romances or any gender-relating information. But how the studio worked or what was the general plan for the game - might be real.

[fkirenicus]

That guy says a lot of things and attempts to rewrite history. I am confused as to why you want to treat him as an authoritative source of information. No DA:O concept art with horns = no they weren't meant to have horns.

It can also be true that adding them was a good idea, but that's a separate topic.

Well, first off, while Gaider by no means was alone in creating the DA lore, he was one of the lead writers, and probably the most vocal (or sociable) of them. Hence, most of what we can find of what the DAO/A and DAE developers have said in ages past is likely to be either him or Mark Darrah (until "Trick" Weekes entered the stage, at least). And to deny that Gaider IS an authorative source for the setting he was a major part in creating is, honestly, a bit silly and lame. One doesn't have to like the guy, but credit where credit is due, nonetheless.
That said, one can EASILY argue he also has done A LOT to tear down all that was good and interesting with his own creation. But that is a matter for another discussion.
Also, there is a lot concept art showing qunari with horns - problem is, the only real source we can trust when it comes to Origins is the toolset and the vanilla DAO game, in which Sten and the other qunari basically look like grumpy men. That, and what Gaider said on the now closed BSN (web archive might have some of it) about the matter, is really the only thing we have to go on. And Gaider's statements have been incorporated into WoT. So that is canon, in its sense.

[TKVNC]

That guy says a lot of things and attempts to rewrite history. I am confused as to why you want to treat him as an authoritative source of information. No DA:O concept art with horns = no they weren't meant to have horns.

It can also be true that adding them was a good idea, but that's a separate topic.

Well, first off, while Gaider by no means was alone in creating the DA lore, he was one of the lead writers, and probably the most vocal (or sociable) of them. Hence, most of what we can find of what the DAO/A and DAE developers have said in ages past is likely to be either him or Mark Darrah (until "Trick" Weekes entered the stage, at least). And to deny that Gaider IS an authorative source for the setting he was a major part in creating is, honestly, a bit silly and lame. One doesn't have to like the guy, but credit where credit is due, nonetheless.
Also, there is a lot concept art showing qunari with horns - problem is, the only real source we can trust when it comes to Origins is the toolset and the vanilla DAO game, in which Sten and the other qunari basically look like grumpy men. That, and what Gaider said on the now closed BSN (web archive might have some of it) about the matter, is really the only thing we have to go on. And Gaider's statements have been incorporated into WoT. So that is canon, in its sense.

Bro all the art for Qunari with Horns is POST DA:O, and WoT is from 2022, more than a full decade after DA:O.

Gaydar is full of ****, doesn't matter if he wrote the original even, the Qunari were never presented with Horns at the time of Origins.

[Oyster Sauce]

Playing DA:O now and it's almost comical how ******** and evil Loghain is

[fkirenicus]

In fact here is Sten's concept art. **** those horns look really good!

What horns?
Seriously though, this is concept art for STEN - not ALL qunari. And, returning to what has been said earlier, Sten (and a few others) is a somewhat special case among the qunari.

[fkirenicus]

Bro all the art for Qunari with Horns is POST DA:O, and WoT is from 2022, more than a full decade after DA:O.

No, the first print is far older. Around 2013, if memory serves. Also, WoT 2 is a different matter (post-Weekes entry and DAI).
Also, there's this - from the summer of 2010, i.e., a pregnancy after Origins, and about a pregnancy before Exodus (DA2).
https://web.archive.org/web/20110830154 ... olved.aspx

[Roguey]

One would have to ask Dan Tudge (Dragon Age Origins's original project director who left Bioware months before release) if qunari ever did in fact have horns.

When Mark Darrah inherited the series, he changed a lot to suit his own tastes.

[TKVNC]

Bro all the art for Qunari with Horns is POST DA:O, and WoT is from 2022, more than a full decade after DA:O.

No, the first presssing is far older. Around 2013, if memory serves. Also, WoT 2 is a different matter (post-Weekes entry and DAI).

Doesn't really matter, that's still 4 years after DA:O - which, we can tell based on the Toolset anyway, given it uses a 2005 Server, has been in production since 2005, so that's nearly a Decade after.

Fact is, Qunari with Horns was 100% a retcon. It's no better than JK Rowling saying that Dumbledore was a *** 20 years later.

[fkirenicus]

One would have to ask Dan Tudge (Dragon Age Origins's original project director who left Bioware months before release) if qunari ever did in fact have horns.

When Mark Darrah inherited the series, he changed a lot to suit his own tastes.

It would be cool to hear from some OTHER than Gaider and Darrah, to be sure! I bet they could shed light on a lot of things (and why they wrecked it, especially after - but also starting with - DA:E).

[fkirenicus]

Doesn't really matter, that's still 4 years after DA:O - which, we can tell based on the Toolset anyway, given it uses a 2005 Server, has been in production since 2005, so that's nearly a Decade after.

Fact is, Qunari with Horns was 100% a retcon. It's no better than JK Rowling saying that Dumbledore was a *** 20 years later.

You're right. And same with Tolkien - he retconned a lot in Lord of the Rings, because some it doesn't fit the notes he had jotted down post WW1 and which later became the Books of Lost Tales.
Seriously, we don't know what they thought back in in 2005-2009, when they moved on from NWN to DA, and what tech and artistic limits set for them. Also, take a look at this - approximately exactly in the middle of Origins and Exodus (summer 2010): https://web.archive.org/web/20110830154 ... olved.aspx
What we do know, in fact, is that Redcliffe was retconned in the game itself. Redcliffe's codex reveals where it really is - and that is not by the southern end of lake Calenhad. As I understand it, they had to move it because of icons on the world map issues. Look at its location in The Stolen Throne. This is just one example.
Of course, if the only source you consider authorative is the bwtoolset data you get with the toolset installation, I understand your viewpoint. We probably have to agree we disagree simply then, because I consider the lore developed while Bioware's writers could be considered sane good enough. That ends with DA:E, but in any DARPG campaign I might run later, the "now" is 9:31 after the defeat of the Mother. All after that goes into the dustbin.
And..... Redcliffe is located where it should be, NOT by the southern end of lake Calenhad.

[TKVNC]

Doesn't really matter, that's still 4 years after DA:O - which, we can tell based on the Toolset anyway, given it uses a 2005 Server, has been in production since 2005, so that's nearly a Decade after.

Fact is, Qunari with Horns was 100% a retcon. It's no better than JK Rowling saying that Dumbledore was a *** 20 years later.

You're right. And same with Tolkien - he retconned a lot in Lord of the Rings, because some it doesn't fit the notes he had jotted down post WW1 and which later became the Books of Lost Tales.
Seriously, we don't know what they thought back in in 2005-2009, when they moved on from NWN to DA. What we do know, in fact, is that Redcliffe was retconned in the game itself. Redcliffe's codex reveals where it really is - and that is not by the southern end of lake Calenhad.

Difference is, Tolkien didn't go back and rewrite Gandalf to be a Deformed Midget for the Lord of the Rings following The Hobbit.

[fkirenicus]

Difference is, Tolkien didn't go back and rewrite Gandalf to be a Deformed Midget for the Lord of the Rings following The Hobbit.

True enough.

[J1M]

In fact here is Sten's concept art. **** those horns look really good!

Keeping mind that Dragon Age is derivative of other things like LOTR, this looks like they wanted a Dragon Age Witcher.

[fkirenicus]

Keeping mind that Dragon Age is derivative of other things like LOTR, this looks like they wanted a Dragon Age Witcher.

<cough> Game <cough> of <cough> Thrones...
Were GRRM to sue Bioware for stealing intellectual property, I am NOT sure he would lose. Especially in the first books and game it is quite easy to see that Gaider & co. wanted to create a world that matched GRRM's Westeros.
And later Bioware decided to turn their setting into a bloody circus instead.

[Acrux]

Doesn't really matter, that's still 4 years after DA:O - which, we can tell based on the Toolset anyway, given it uses a 2005 Server, has been in production since 2005, so that's nearly a Decade after.

Fact is, Qunari with Horns was 100% a retcon. It's no better than JK Rowling saying that Dumbledore was a *** 20 years later.

You're right. And same with Tolkien - he retconned a lot in Lord of the Rings, because some it doesn't fit the notes he had jotted down post WW1 and which later became the Books of Lost Tales.
Seriously, we don't know what they thought back in in 2005-2009, when they moved on from NWN to DA. What we do know, in fact, is that Redcliffe was retconned in the game itself. Redcliffe's codex reveals where it really is - and that is not by the southern end of lake Calenhad.

Difference is, Tolkien didn't go back and rewrite Gandalf to be a Deformed Midget for the Lord of the Rings following The Hobbit.

The other difference is that Tolkien's changes were the natural progress of an author writing a major work. He changed his mind about things during the process of writing. What was published as The Book of Lost Tales were really just his author's notes before publication. He didn't make those sweeping changes after it was released.

► Show Spoiler

He did make some chamges after publication, mostly minor errara, but notably the chapter Riddles in the Dark. He also tinkered with things that bothered him for the rest of his life - like what to make of the nature of orcs. But afaik none of those was published in an already finished work.

[Rand]

Difference is, Tolkien didn't go back and rewrite Gandalf to be a Deformed Midget for the Lord of the Rings following The Hobbit.

Or make him gay for no reason, like Jo Rowling's Dumbledore idiocy.

[Rand]

Were GRRM to sue Bioware for stealing intellectual property, I am NOT sure he would lose. Especially in the first books and game it is quite easy to see that Gaider & co. wanted to create a world that matched GRRM's Westeros.

Except not nearly as good (as the initial couple of books).

[rusty_shackleford]

Qunari were just meant to be the other, I don't think they ever meant to explain them because then that takes away the mystery.

[rusty_shackleford]

You're right. And same with Tolkien - he retconned a lot in Lord of the Rings, because some it doesn't fit the notes he had jotted down post WW1 and which later became the Books of Lost Tales.
Seriously, we don't know what they thought back in in 2005-2009, when they moved on from NWN to DA. What we do know, in fact, is that Redcliffe was retconned in the game itself. Redcliffe's codex reveals where it really is - and that is not by the southern end of lake Calenhad.

Difference is, Tolkien didn't go back and rewrite Gandalf to be a Deformed Midget for the Lord of the Rings following The Hobbit.

The other difference is that Tolkien's changes were the natural progress of an author writing a major work. He changed his mind about things during the process of writing. What was published as The Book of Lost Tales were really just his author's notes before publication. He didn't make those sweeping changes after it was released.

► Show Spoiler

He did make some chamges after publication, mostly minor errara, but notably the chapter Riddles in the Dark. He also tinkered with things that bothered him for the rest of his life - like what to make of the nature of orcs. But afaik none of those was published in an already finished work.

He made a lot of changes to things that were anachronisms iirc

[Roguey]

In fact here is Sten's concept art. **** those horns look really good!

Keeping mind that Dragon Age is derivative of other things like LOTR, this looks like they wanted a Dragon Age Witcher.

They're Not-Evil and Not-Stupid Half-Orc Barbarians.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/drago ... 0-6202477/

DT: Sten is a warrior of the Qunari race and has been trained as a soldier since birth (the Qunari are always at war). He's a very stoic and disciplined man with a strong code of honor, so how he treats others depends on whether or not they have his respect, which he doesn't give easily.

[Oyster Sauce]

In fact here is Sten's concept art. **** those horns look really good!

Keeping mind that Dragon Age is derivative of other things like LOTR, this looks like they wanted a Dragon Age Witcher.

They're Not-Evil and Not-Stupid Half-Orc Barbarians.

Yeah, Mandalorians. Sten is Canderous.

[J1M]

In fact here is Sten's concept art. **** those horns look really good!

Keeping mind that Dragon Age is derivative of other things like LOTR, this looks like they wanted a Dragon Age Witcher.

They're Not-Evil and Not-Stupid Half-Orc Barbarians.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/drago ... 0-6202477/

DT: Sten is a warrior of the Qunari race and has been trained as a soldier since birth (the Qunari are always at war). He's a very stoic and disciplined man with a strong code of honor, so how he treats others depends on whether or not they have his respect, which he doesn't give easily.

If he is not evil, why was he left in a cage for murder?

[rusty_shackleford]

He's objectively evil, rogay is going to use some "muh moral relativity" argument.

[Roguey]

If he is not evil, why was he left in a cage for murder?

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

[rusty_shackleford]

If he is not evil, why was he left in a cage for murder?

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

He's lying.

"I may sign a treaty with the Qunari once I become king."

"My people do not negotiate."

"Don't you people sign agreements before and keep to the terms? Don't you have honor?"

"We only signed because you believed in those terms. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our ships here."

Nothing a qunari says can be trusted.

[Acrux]

If he is not evil, why was he left in a cage for murder?

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

I've never recruited him because he openly admits to killing those families without any remorse.