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Starfield - Todd Howard's latest masterpiece

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Post by agentorange »

Acrux wrote: September 12th, 2023, 07:26
agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 03:42

What do Braid or The Witness have to do with progressivism. Or with politics at all for that matter?
You mean the game where instead of rescuing a princess you're actually a problematic incel who has to be run off by her boyfriend?

The guy has a bunch of strikes against him.
1. He's an indie dev so that automatically counts as half a point.
2. His games are about deconstruction, a stupid postmodern concept that should be removed from, well, aything.
3. He's big on having a "message" in his games, a common progressive fault. (The Manhattan Project was bad, okay?)
4. He chickens out on saying what his obvious message is by saying it's up to the player - death of the author garbage.
5. He thinks games should be art (they shouldn't).
Indie developer means you make games without being tied to a separate publisher and usually self-publish, although I think you can still be indie if a publishing deal is reached at the very end of development, that's it. Doom was an indie game, as were many foundational classic PC games.

You might wanna look around and realize all major game publisher corporations are pushing poz by the bucket load. The only non-pozzed rpgs since 2015 have been indie: Underrail, AoD, Brigand, Battle Brothers, ATOM etc. Is Factorio a libtard game? Is Dominions? The only chance for non-pozzed games going forward is indie.

Games have the potential to be art, in the same way that any mode of human expression involving craft, skill, creativity can be brought to the level of art. Not every painting is a work of art, or every film, or every book, but some are, and the same with games. The works of art are the ones that make best use of their medium to express an idea or feeling in a way that can't be done in another medium. This is why most games that get pushed as artistic are never actually works of art, because they're trying to copy another medium, usually films, and suppress the defining, unique characteristics of games. Thief is a work of art, Last of Us is not. Quake is a work of art, Dear Esther is not.

This is mostly the same way that Blow approaches the topic of games as an artform. It's why his games are thoroughly games, and pretty difficult ones at that which means he is not afraid that people might get stuck and not see everything including the story--which can hardly be said of games made by major publishers. He comes up with inventive mechanics and through these tells a story/expresses ideas in way that only a game can, and he codes his own game engines from the ground up to do all this. I wish there were more game developers like him.

Not to suck the guy off too much but I recently finished The Witness after spending 120 hours (and there is not a single cutscenes in the game) on it, and it's one of the best games I've ever played, so I think it's a shame that people have these preconceived notions about him that I think stem from a few meme videos (the thing about Braid being all about nukes comes from one such analysis video, when it's only one small part of the game) and have nothing at all to do with the objective reality of what his games are.
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Post by Pretty Princess »

agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 12:56
so I think it's a shame that people have these preconceived notions about him that I think stem from a few meme videos (the thing about Braid being all about nukes comes from one such analysis video, when it's only one small part of the game) and have nothing at all to do with the objective reality of what his games are.
My 'preconceived' notions about him stems from playing Braid and concluding it's one of the most pretentious and pseud games I've ever played. Released during that fad of philosophizing about games being art, typical of those years, and Braid was the spearhead of that 2deep4u movement that plagued video games for a while. I don't consider his impact on the industry to be a positive one, he's one of the reasons why we have subversion for the sake of subversion in so many games now.
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Post by Lich »

I uninstalled Braid after playing it for about an hour about ten years ago. Blow sounds like a regular liberal before 2008.
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Post by agentorange »

I like pretentious pseud games that are good games, like Pathologic, Planescape (deconstruction of rolling multiple character types in an rpg, deconstruction of death in games), Arcanum (deconstruction of chosen one archetype and subverts your expectations with who is the bad guy, also has pseud pretentious themes like history as told and recorded by humans is non-objective and ephemeral and historical events can differ dramatically based on individual perspective), ATOM, The Witness.

What are some more pseud-core games I can try?
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Post by Emphyrio »

agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 13:48
I like pretentious pseud games that are good games, like Pathologic, Planescape (deconstruction of rolling multiple character types in an rpg, deconstruction of death in games), Arcanum (deconstruction of chosen one archetype and subverts your expectations with who is the bad guy, also has pseud pretentious themes like history as told and recorded by humans is non-objective and ephemeral and historical events can differ dramatically based on individual perspective), ATOM, The Witness.

What are some more pseud-core games I can try?
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Post by agentorange »

Yes. The Void is another excellent pretentious pseud-core game.
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Post by Acrux »

agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 12:56
The only chance for non-pozzed games going forward is indie.
That's why I said half a point. As you point out, there are some normal people making games, but the overwhelming majority of these indie (I feel dirty typing that out, by the way) devs are dangerhaired LGBTP2S+++ allies.
agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 12:56
Not to suck the guy off too much
Ah, man, I'd almost included a comment about you having a hardon for the guy, but thought it would be too abrasive. Now I wish I'd said it.



Video games are not art, by the way. And you shouldn't want them to be.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 13:48
I like pretentious pseud games that are good games, like [...] ATOM
wut
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Post by maidenhaver »

Pretty Princess wrote: September 12th, 2023, 13:07
agentorange wrote: September 12th, 2023, 12:56
so I think it's a shame that people have these preconceived notions about him that I think stem from a few meme videos (the thing about Braid being all about nukes comes from one such analysis video, when it's only one small part of the game) and have nothing at all to do with the objective reality of what his games are.
My 'preconceived' notions about him stems from playing Braid and concluding it's one of the most pretentious and pseud games I've ever played. Released during that fad of philosophizing about games being art, typical of those years, and Braid was the spearhead of that 2deep4u movement that plagued video games for a while. I don't consider his impact on the industry to be a positive one, he's one of the reasons why we have subversion for the sake of subversion in so many games now.
Games are art, nothing can change that. No amount of "b-but true art is statues!" can alter reality. Games are art. End of.
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Post by GhostCow »

Games are art when people like Jack Thompson attack them, but that's it.
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Post by maidenhaver »

Games are overall superior art to theater, painting, music, and sculpting. The purpose of art has never been to merely show off something pretty but to make an audience, and to get them to participate in the artist's illusion. That's gaming. There's no denying this granite law of the universe without being gay.
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Post by Lich »

Games are art. Games aren't art. Simple as.
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Post by The_Mask »

maidenhaver wrote: September 12th, 2023, 17:12
Games are overall superior art to theater, painting, music, and sculpting.
I was with you until you mentioned sculpting. I've taken a sculpting class at one point, and I can tell you that no videogame can match the feeling you have during the process of taking a piece of stone, and molding into shape with your own hands.

I'm with you that videogames are better than theatre, better than film, can use music far better, and can have way better artistic expression than a painting. But sculpting appeals to the tactile, and no videogame can match that. Yet.

I guess I'll eat my words in 50 years when VR does it. But until then...
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rusty_shackleford wrote: October 28th, 2024, 07:36
Mediocre or bad games can still have parts that are good.
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Post by Emphyrio »

The_Mask wrote: September 12th, 2023, 19:06
maidenhaver wrote: September 12th, 2023, 17:12
Games are overall superior art to theater, painting, music, and sculpting.
I was with you until you mentioned sculpting. I've taken a sculpting class at one point, and I can tell you that no videogame can match the feeling you have during the process of taking a piece of stone, and molding into shape with your own hands.

I'm with you that videogames are better than theatre, better than film, can use music far better, and can have way better artistic expression than a painting. But sculpting appeals to the tactile, and no videogame can match that. Yet.

I guess I'll eat my words in 50 years when VR does it. But until then...
you are conflating the creation process with passive consumption. Most people don't experience sculpture tactilely, unless the sculpture is of a dragon penis.
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Post by The_Mask »

Tomorrow:

Join us for an evening of music as the London Symphony Orchestra performs selections from Starfield's soundtrack at LSO St. Luke’s, composed by the legendary Inon Zur.

Just like Yves, I chase tales
rusty_shackleford wrote: October 28th, 2024, 07:36
Mediocre or bad games can still have parts that are good.
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Post by somerandomdude »

Supposedly the latest Nvidia driver helps starfield a bit, but I uninstalled this **** the other day, and got no plans to test it.
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Post by Rigwort »

Maybe it's just me, but reading that all the dungeon-like content is 'meh' and that the best part of the game is the story missions proves to me that Bethesda never even had a vision. I thought the "diamond-in-the-rough" dungeon experience was good. I may be alone on this, but finding information to lead me on my way to or just stumbling into a well-designed dungeon is way more interesting than having one spoon-fed to me by way of a story. Yeah, a lot of them are stinkers, but that just adds to the thrill of finding a good one.
Bethesda games, when they shine, have one of these things: 1) interesting dungeon design 2) interesting setting/background lore 3) interesting items. I'll admit, it ain't everyone's cup of tea. But it does deliver on that one tabletop experience that is cheap, but is also valuable: the DM procrastinated or is lazy/sick, so instead of a meticulously crafted story you just get plopped somewhere, and you're off! Sure, he may cobble up dungeons from scattered notes and ideas, and comes up with characters on the fly, but he also allows you to play with the interesting items that are usually restricted, or you utilize systems that have never been used in your group before. Certainly a cheaper experience, but it is still enjoyable.
Hopefully a company that isn't infested will be able to produce a game that fulfills that game type.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Rigwort wrote: September 13th, 2023, 10:29
Maybe it's just me, but reading that all the dungeon-like content is 'meh' and that the best part of the game is the story missions proves to me that Bethesda never even had a vision. I thought the "diamond-in-the-rough" dungeon experience was good. I may be alone on this, but finding information to lead me on my way to or just stumbling into a well-designed dungeon is way more interesting than having one spoon-fed to me by way of a story. Yeah, a lot of them are stinkers, but that just adds to the thrill of finding a good one.
Bethesda games, when they shine, have one of these things: 1) interesting dungeon design 2) interesting setting/background lore 3) interesting items. I'll admit, it ain't everyone's cup of tea. But it does deliver on that one tabletop experience that is cheap, but is also valuable: the DM procrastinated or is lazy/sick, so instead of a meticulously crafted story you just get plopped somewhere, and you're off! Sure, he may cobble up dungeons from scattered notes and ideas, and comes up with characters on the fly, but he also allows you to play with the interesting items that are usually restricted, or you utilize systems that have never been used in your group before. Certainly a cheaper experience, but it is still enjoyable.
Hopefully a company that isn't infested will be able to produce a game that fulfills that game type.
The 'random' content is just as boring as it is in any other bethesda game. The 'main' content, that is, main story/side quests/similar, is IMO significantly higher. I enjoyed exploring the various areas I went to.

I plan on giving this another look once the devkit is out and I can whitewash it.
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Post by Rigwort »

I never found the games having boring dungeons as a bad thing. It allows for that "high" of coming across a well-designed or interesting dungeon. It's just a shame that for the most part those dungeons, since Daggerfall at least, are all relegated to the story. I always thought Beth games would be better if the main story just served as some kind of tutorial for those too boring to find their own adventures.
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Post by The_Mask »

Just started. :bounce:
The_Mask wrote: September 12th, 2023, 21:12
Tomorrow:

Join us for an evening of music as the London Symphony Orchestra performs selections from Starfield's soundtrack at LSO St. Luke’s, composed by the legendary Inon Zur.

Just like Yves, I chase tales
rusty_shackleford wrote: October 28th, 2024, 07:36
Mediocre or bad games can still have parts that are good.
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Post by Vergil »

People are really doing deep dives to come to the novel conclusion that bethesda games run like **** and aren't optimized at all huh.
I'm just stating the facts.
Question is are you going to gargle the truth or swallow?
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

skyrim SE/FO76 run fine, starfield is a return to form of running like ****

playing skyrim SE made me remember how clean games used to look. It's hard to describe. Every game is a blurry, jaggy unoptimized mess now.
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Post by maidenhaver »

Vergil wrote: September 13th, 2023, 18:48
People are really doing deep dives to come to the novel conclusion that bethesda games run like **** and aren't optimized at all huh.
Starfield is a new generation's introduction to bethesda's games.
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Post by GhostCow »

rusty_shackleford wrote: September 13th, 2023, 18:49
skyrim SE/FO76 run fine, starfield is a return to form of running like ****

playing skyrim SE made me remember how clean games used to look. It's hard to describe. Every game is a blurry, jaggy unoptimized mess now.
Everything is blurry now because we stopped using MSAA and switched to inferior solutions that require less power. TXAA being the worst of them.
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Post by The_Mask »

He missed an opportunity to connect VTMB when he mentioned scopes and observatories. hurk derp

Although, I do feel he is right: the game looks boring. Except, and to paraphrase quote Kain from LOK: Defiance, for "humans with a love of doors".

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rusty_shackleford wrote: October 28th, 2024, 07:36
Mediocre or bad games can still have parts that are good.
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Post by maidenhaver »

I love doors, especially locked ones, but that's what I play Thief fm's for.
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Post by Rand »

I'm looking forward to Skyblivion and Skywind more than anything Bethesda makes.
I think Skyblivion is the more ambitious project. They're committed to significantly improving stuff like dungeons where Bethesda just sharted out another few samey corridors.
You may as well not bother replying to my posts if it's to argue anything except concrete facts or your personal opinion. I still probably won't see it.
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Post by Rand »

rusty_shackleford wrote: September 13th, 2023, 18:49
skyrim SE/FO76 run fine, starfield is a return to form of running like ****

playing skyrim SE made me remember how clean games used to look. It's hard to describe. Every game is a blurry, jaggy unoptimized mess now.
I fixed a lot of that in Starfield with two mods. Like a shocking level of improvement in getting rid of the blurriness and ugliness.
Also turn off FSR, their implementation is **** unless you have a top of the line AMD card.

https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/1119

https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/1607
You may as well not bother replying to my posts if it's to argue anything except concrete facts or your personal opinion. I still probably won't see it.
Reject your retarded-wing political programming and learn to think.
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