When does QoL go too far?

[logincrash]

Mini-map/Map location points.

Was playing Dying Light 1 and noticed there is a marker for everything the player is supposed to go to/do/etc... Pretty much standard console slop design to have "Follow the bouncing ball" for everything. Thing is, this works against basic game play a lot of the time. That is, in a game where exploration is a component of play, and in the case of DL, picking up random components, happening across various trigger vents, etc... having everything mapped out with a bouncy ball is counter to natural and evolved play.

Granted, in such games you need good directions so the player can find the location through a journal, hints, or whatever... but... this process is the bread and butter of exploration play and the mini-map/"go here and do this" concept is murder on natural evolving play and why a lot of these games turn into mind numbing "task running" because people essentially just "follow the bouncing ball" like dumb animals to their next objective.

As opposed to have to think, consider, reason, pay attention to details, etc... to figure things out. What's that? I am supposed to go to my room 194 in the complex? Where might that be? Oh... did I look at the walls in the building that pointed out what floor I am on? What about the rooms I walked by, did I pay attention to that? Oh Noes!!!!!! what to do!

It is a simple thing, subtle and honestly... mundane in its design principal, but having people have to think about logistics in play is a great tool to slow the player, develop content exploration naturally, and increase a more natural feel of play in the game.

Or not... here is your bouncy ball idiot... chase it... bored yet?

I remember playing Witcher 3 and having to turn off the mini-map because that's literally the only thing I would stare at when doing investigation quests. I would turn on the detective vision or whatever it was called and then follow the dotted line on the map.
As soon as I turned off the mini-map, I started to actually explore the surroundings. Made for a much more pleasant experience.

Cyberpunk also got a lot better after I used the Limited HUD mod to hide all HUD elements except when in scanner mode.

See, I thought of doing that too, but the idea of an intrusive HUD showering you with all kinds of info in a game set in a dystopic cyberpunk society felt more immersive. Also, I don't think the mini-map was as universally useful in CP77 as it was in Witcher 3. CDPR did a better job with that in CP77.
Honestly, as much **** as Oblivion, 3D Fallouts, etc. get for their quest markers, having a compass instead of a mini-map was a very good decision. It gently nudged you towards nearby points of interest but still required you to pay attention to the environment to get to them.

[Vaako]

currency/token merchants in mmorpg that you dont have to farm a certain mob 100 times until you get what you want. Also practically free unlimited respeccs. But lots of space for items to store is great but this could also be made expensive or timeconsuming via bag upgrades.

[Havitner]

currency/token merchants in mmorpg

"You have slain the Supreme Avatar of the Void God ! Looting his body, you find a Heroic Token! Visit John the Artifact Merchant back in town to browse his collection of ancient mythical weapons and armor, and purchase the item of your choice for a token."

[Demonic Fate]

I remember playing Witcher 3 and having to turn off the mini-map because that's literally the only thing I would stare at when doing investigation quests. I would turn on the detective vision or whatever it was called and then follow the dotted line on the map.
As soon as I turned off the mini-map, I started to actually explore the surroundings. Made for a much more pleasant experience.

Cyberpunk also got a lot better after I used the Limited HUD mod to hide all HUD elements except when in scanner mode.

See, I thought of doing that too, but the idea of an intrusive HUD showering you with all kinds of info in a game set in a dystopic cyberpunk society felt more immersive.

I can see your point; to me though, Cyberpunk is much more retro 80s dystopic futurism than it is contemporary dystopic futurism. (There is no social media, privacy appears to still be possible somehow, corporations are paternalistic monoliths instead of ********-fueled vultures, etc.)

So I prefer the old-fashioned togglable "cyberdeck/cyber-eye mode, ENGAGE!" approach to bio-integrated AR. It also makes me pay more attention to the environment, which largely deserves it - even a simple irrelevant food stall will often have nice little worldbuilding touches.

[rusty_shackleford]

cyberpunk is the libtard equivalent of what regular sword & sorcery is for normal men

[Xenich]

Mini-map/Map location points.

Was playing Dying Light 1 and noticed there is a marker for everything the player is supposed to go to/do/etc... Pretty much standard console slop design to have "Follow the bouncing ball" for everything. Thing is, this works against basic game play a lot of the time. That is, in a game where exploration is a component of play, and in the case of DL, picking up random components, happening across various trigger vents, etc... having everything mapped out with a bouncy ball is counter to natural and evolved play.

Granted, in such games you need good directions so the player can find the location through a journal, hints, or whatever... but... this process is the bread and butter of exploration play and the mini-map/"go here and do this" concept is murder on natural evolving play and why a lot of these games turn into mind numbing "task running" because people essentially just "follow the bouncing ball" like dumb animals to their next objective.

As opposed to have to think, consider, reason, pay attention to details, etc... to figure things out. What's that? I am supposed to go to my room 194 in the complex? Where might that be? Oh... did I look at the walls in the building that pointed out what floor I am on? What about the rooms I walked by, did I pay attention to that? Oh Noes!!!!!! what to do!

It is a simple thing, subtle and honestly... mundane in its design principal, but having people have to think about logistics in play is a great tool to slow the player, develop content exploration naturally, and increase a more natural feel of play in the game.

Or not... here is your bouncy ball idiot... chase it... bored yet?

I remember playing Witcher 3 and having to turn off the mini-map because that's literally the only thing I would stare at when doing investigation quests. I would turn on the detective vision or whatever it was called and then follow the dotted line on the map.
As soon as I turned off the mini-map, I started to actually explore the surroundings. Made for a much more pleasant experience.

Yep, it is at direct odds with exploration play. Turning things off can be an issue in a lot of games as well though I found. Often developers will rely on the fact that the "cheats" (ie minimap, icons, etc...) is there and so will low effort the quest writing and directions. There have been a few games where I turned off those features and I was left with no clue where to even begin to go with the quest because they were relying on the minimap/map icons/bouncing balls.

Now it is just a lazy way to make games and it forces a play approach like you pointed out which becomes mundane and boring, completely disconnected with the game world.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

cyberpunk is the libtard equivalent of what regular sword & sorcery is for normal men

I think it can be a cool aesthetic. Huge coruscant or bladerunner skyscraper citscapes where you can't see the bottom. Spider tanks. Robotic limbs. Etc. But as a genre or narrative about the evils of dystopia, it isn't relevant anymore given that we are living in the cyberpunk dystopias we were warned about half a century ago, just without the cool gadgets. So with cyberpunk you really have to lean into the cool factor.

Classic medieval fantasy can become a little tiring.

[rusty_shackleford]

Crystal Project lets you buy any item you've "missed" from a shop, the entire game is full of modern "QoL" junk that @WhiteShark really likes

[methoxetamine]

Crystal Project lets you buy any item you've "missed" from a shop, the entire game is full of modern "QoL" junk that @WhiteShark really likes

Maybe this would bother me if it trivialized the game in any way but I haven't used the lost and found shop yet in 12 hours and the game is still quite challenging

[Valter]

Crystal Project lets you buy any item you've "missed" from a shop, the entire game is full of modern "QoL" junk that @WhiteShark really likes

This kind of optional QoL is great. Like it use it, don't like it ignore it

[rusty_shackleford]

Crystal Project lets you buy any item you've "missed" from a shop, the entire game is full of modern "QoL" junk that @WhiteShark really likes

This kind of optional QoL is great. Like it use it, don't like it ignore it

You can use this argument for anything "optional" that makes a game worse

[Valter]

Crystal Project lets you buy any item you've "missed" from a shop, the entire game is full of modern "QoL" junk that @WhiteShark really likes

This kind of optional QoL is great. Like it use it, don't like it ignore it

You can use this argument for anything "optional" that makes a game worse

If it's optional whether it makes the game worse is your choice

[methoxetamine]

How much Crystal Project did you play @rusty_shackleford ? I need to know your qualifications on thinking this mechanic makes the game worse

[rusty_shackleford]

This kind of optional QoL is great. Like it use it, don't like it ignore it

You can use this argument for anything "optional" that makes a game worse

If it's optional whether it makes the game worse is your choice

The game will be designed around the 'optional' features

[Valter]

You can use this argument for anything "optional" that makes a game worse

If it's optional whether it makes the game worse is your choice

The game will be designed around the 'optional' features

In some cases yes, but not necessarily. No game is designed around the overpowered items a Deluxe Edition gives you at the start, but they're there.

[rusty_shackleford]

If it's optional whether it makes the game worse is your choice

The game will be designed around the 'optional' features

In some cases yes, but not necessarily. No game is designed around the overpowered items a Deluxe Edition gives you at the start, but they're there.

Those are added post-release or after the game is finished

[Valter]

The game will be designed around the 'optional' features

In some cases yes, but not necessarily. No game is designed around the overpowered items a Deluxe Edition gives you at the start, but they're there.

Those are added post-release or after the game is finished

You have a point there. Personally I do believe a game ought to be designed around the fact that the player will use all tools available to him, unless they're specifically labeled as "Use this to make the game easier.", as is the case with your typical difficulty settings. Would you say the Lost Item Shop is portrayed as an "easy mode" feature?

[rusty_shackleford]

In some cases yes, but not necessarily. No game is designed around the overpowered items a Deluxe Edition gives you at the start, but they're there.

Those are added post-release or after the game is finished

You have a point there. Personally I do believe a game ought to be designed around the fact that the player will use all tools available to him, unless they're specifically labeled as "Use this to make the game easier.", as is the case with your typical difficulty settings. Would you say the Lost Item Shop is portrayed as an "easy mode" feature?

It takes away the exclusive rewards players would get for fully exploring or using all the tools available to him and gives it to anyone willing to grind monsters for money

[methoxetamine]

How much Crystal Project did you play @rusty_shackleford ? I need to know your qualifications on thinking this mechanic makes the game worse

The silence is deafening

[rusty_shackleford]

How much Crystal Project did you play @rusty_shackleford ? I need to know your qualifications on thinking this mechanic makes the game worse

The silence is deafening

Enough to know that I was able to purchase items I failed to steal from bosses which defeats the purpose of being able to steal items from bosses

[methoxetamine]

How much Crystal Project did you play @rusty_shackleford ? I need to know your qualifications on thinking this mechanic makes the game worse

The silence is deafening

Enough to know that I was able to purchase items I failed to steal from bosses which defeats the purpose of being able to steal items from bosses

If you succeed at stealing them those items wont show up in the shop, did you ever think about that you casual?

[rusty_shackleford]

The silence is deafening

Enough to know that I was able to purchase items I failed to steal from bosses which defeats the purpose of being able to steal items from bosses

If you succeed at stealing them those items wont show up in the shop, did you ever think about that you casual?

but the person who doesn't do it gets the same reward as you

[methoxetamine]

Enough to know that I was able to purchase items I failed to steal from bosses which defeats the purpose of being able to steal items from bosses

If you succeed at stealing them those items wont show up in the shop, did you ever think about that you casual?

but the person who doesn't do it gets the same reward as you

Yea but I am smarter and more handsome than them so who really won?

[rusty_shackleford]

If you succeed at stealing them those items wont show up in the shop, did you ever think about that you casual?

but the person who doesn't do it gets the same reward as you

Yea but I am smarter and more handsome than them so who really won?

Imagine this was true but someone could also just pay money for your wife, this is the equivalent

[Valter]

Is your enjoyment of a game really influenced by how others play it?

[rusty_shackleford]

Is your enjoyment of a game really influenced by how others play it?

Absolutely, yes.

But it also influences game design.
The reason you don't see a lot of things trivialized by quicksave in RPGs anymore is because of savescumming, for example. What was the last game you saw with cursed items?