What caused the mid-90s RPG drought?

[rusty_shackleford]

Can you say for certain that the RPG teams were dispersed to other games?

yea I click the credits and check what games the individual developers worked on

I did that with a few and just got more RPGs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

?

Selection_001.webp

Selection_002.webp

etc

[Norfleet]

yea I click the credits and check what games the individual developers worked on

Maybe people back then still believed in originality and didn't want to keep remaking the same ****. You do an RPG, maybe you wanna do something else next. Development cycle is several years, so by the time you return to RPGs, it's the next decade.

[rusty_shackleford]

yea I click the credits and check what games the individual developers worked on

Maybe people back then still believed in originality and didn't want to keep remaking the same ****. You do an RPG, maybe you wanna do something else next. Development cycle is several years, so by the time you return to RPGs, it's the next decade.

so true, the various groups that all made multiple entries in a series just decided to stop at exactly the same time

[Norfleet]

so true, the various groups that all made multiple entries in a series just decided to stop at exactly the same time

You have a relatively small pool of developers of the era. If they all just happen to be in roughly aligned, you'll see a downturn. Also, as you already posted from the releases of the era, they didn't exactly stop, either:

Sir-Tech
Wizardry VII: 1992
…
Wizardry 8: 2001

New World Computing
Might and Magic V: 1993
…
Might and Magic VI: 1998

Blue Sky Productions(later Looking Glass)
Ultima Underworld: 1992
Ultima Underworld 2: 1993
System Shock: 1994 (Only some consider this an RPG)
…
System Shock 2: 1999 (Partial credit)

Origin, main studio
Pagan: Ultima VIII: 1994
…
Ultima IX: Ascension: 1999

Your studios that you consider noteworthy seem to have more or less continued to do their thing on a usual development timetable. It takes like 4-8 years to make a new thing, and these studios...continued to make a thing every 4-8 years.

[Tweed]

Don't know where it is now, but I do seem to recall Warren Spector bitching either after Ultima VII or Serpent Isle that people weren't interested in long games or RPGs anymore.

[Tangerine]

Don't know where it is now, but I do seem to recall Warren Spector bitching either after Ultima VII or Serpent Isle that people weren't interested in long games or RPGs anymore.

People's a funny way to say himself.

[Tweed]

Well, one of them was an interview on the Codex: https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9190

There's no doubt RPG's were out of favor by the mid-90s. No doubt at all. People didn't seem to want fantasy stories or post-apocalypse stories anymore. They certainly didn't want isometric, 100 hour fantasy or post-apocalypse stories, that's for sure! I couldn't say why it happened, but it did. Everyone was jumping on the CD craze – it was all cinematic games and high-end graphics puzzle games… That was a tough time for me – I mean, picture yourself sitting in a meeting with a bunch of execs, trying to convince them to do all sorts of cool games and being told, "Warren, you're not allowed to say the word 'story' any more." Talk about a slap in the face, a bucket of cold water, a dose of reality.

If you ask me, the reason it all happened was that we assumed our audience wanted 100 hours of play and didn't care much about graphics. Even high end RPGs were pretty plain jane next to things like Myst and even our own Wing Commander series. I think we fell behind our audience in terms of the sophistication they expected and we catered too much to the hardcore fans. That can work when you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars – even a few million – but when games start costing many millions, you just can't make them for a relatively small audience of fans.

[rusty_shackleford]

Don't know where it is now, but I do seem to recall Warren Spector bitching either after Ultima VII or Serpent Isle that people weren't interested in long games or RPGs anymore.

Well, one of them was an interview on the Codex: https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9190

There's no doubt RPG's were out of favor by the mid-90s. No doubt at all. People didn't seem to want fantasy stories or post-apocalypse stories anymore. They certainly didn't want isometric, 100 hour fantasy or post-apocalypse stories, that's for sure! I couldn't say why it happened, but it did. Everyone was jumping on the CD craze – it was all cinematic games and high-end graphics puzzle games… That was a tough time for me – I mean, picture yourself sitting in a meeting with a bunch of execs, trying to convince them to do all sorts of cool games and being told, "Warren, you're not allowed to say the word 'story' any more." Talk about a slap in the face, a bucket of cold water, a dose of reality.

If you ask me, the reason it all happened was that we assumed our audience wanted 100 hours of play and didn't care much about graphics. Even high end RPGs were pretty plain jane next to things like Myst and even our own Wing Commander series. I think we fell behind our audience in terms of the sophistication they expected and we catered too much to the hardcore fans. That can work when you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars – even a few million – but when games start costing many millions, you just can't make them for a relatively small audience of fans.

Doesn't hold up under scrutiny, there was no similar drought for RPGs on the console, the mid-90s arguably being a golden era for console RPGs

[Tweed]

Keep in mind that Myst was a best selling game for a ridiculously long time. To the point where PC Gamer (American version) became visibility irritated on having to report it month after month after month on the charts. It was stupidly easy to get into, had no interface to get in the way, and probably sold an insane number of hint books when no one could figure out the puzzles besides. Also, it was P R E T T Y.

[Tweed]

Don't know where it is now, but I do seem to recall Warren Spector bitching either after Ultima VII or Serpent Isle that people weren't interested in long games or RPGs anymore.

Well, one of them was an interview on the Codex: https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9190

There's no doubt RPG's were out of favor by the mid-90s. No doubt at all. People didn't seem to want fantasy stories or post-apocalypse stories anymore. They certainly didn't want isometric, 100 hour fantasy or post-apocalypse stories, that's for sure! I couldn't say why it happened, but it did. Everyone was jumping on the CD craze – it was all cinematic games and high-end graphics puzzle games… That was a tough time for me – I mean, picture yourself sitting in a meeting with a bunch of execs, trying to convince them to do all sorts of cool games and being told, "Warren, you're not allowed to say the word 'story' any more." Talk about a slap in the face, a bucket of cold water, a dose of reality.

If you ask me, the reason it all happened was that we assumed our audience wanted 100 hours of play and didn't care much about graphics. Even high end RPGs were pretty plain jane next to things like Myst and even our own Wing Commander series. I think we fell behind our audience in terms of the sophistication they expected and we catered too much to the hardcore fans. That can work when you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars – even a few million – but when games start costing many millions, you just can't make them for a relatively small audience of fans.

Doesn't hold up under scrutiny, there was no similar drought for RPGs on the console, the mid-90s arguably being a golden era for console RPGs

But Myst got a lot of mouth-breathing boomers into computer gaming.

[Tweed]

If your shareholders decide that RPGs are a bad investment, then you don't get to make the game. If your shareholders decide your next game is Myst Clone #543 then you make Myst Clone #543 and boy did we suffer that bilge.

EDIT: Not saying that EA was to blame for killing RPGs at Origin. Garriott did that himself.

[rusty_shackleford]

Origin easily could have been the most capable of capturing the console audience due to the high brand recognition of Ultima in the Japanese market. Their mediocre ports to consoles rather than treating consoles as a first-party platform was their own fault. Could easily see Ultima still getting regular releases like a western Dragon Quest in this scenario.

[Mordred]

I think in many cases it was planned to fade them out cause they did not fit the woke zeitgeist that was quite present in the 90s already.

A classical Ultima would make leftoids go berserk and blow up the studio probably but it would be nice to have.


Maybe after what Trails 1st did someone has the Idead to remake the old Ultima or Akalabeth in 3D would be great

[Tweed]

I think in many cases it was planned to fade them out cause they did not fit the woke zeitgeist that was quite present in the 90s already.

A classical Ultima would make leftoids go berserk and blow up the studio probably but it would be nice to have.


Maybe after what Trails 1st did someone has the Idead to remake the old Ultima or Akalabeth in 3D would be great

Ultima is p.woke.

[Mordred]

A blond white blue eyed prime aryan specimen as protagonist? I know you could switch to a gigastacy in VII but still blond white blue eyed she was not present in IX.

This alone would make the typical suspects go berserk.

Also Britannia pretty ******* white and ultima promotes a lot of classical good values.

What makes you call it woke?

Edit: Ah i see they had a time where it was not fixed and you could select different skin colors/races. Never saw anyone do that i totally forgot that option existed

But unless they start talking to you about slavery and racism when you chose a black dude... i see no harm in that.

[Roguey]

yea I click the credits and check what games the individual developers worked on

Maybe people back then still believed in originality and didn't want to keep remaking the same ****. You do an RPG, maybe you wanna do something else next. Development cycle is several years, so by the time you return to RPGs, it's the next decade.

so true, the various groups that all made multiple entries in a series just decided to stop at exactly the same time

Well Darkside of Xeen was originally supposed to be the last, they pivoted to SRPGs with the Heroes series so it's not like they ever stopped, just went to a different kind of RPG.

Ultima 8 was released a year after Serpent Isle and then it took five years to make 9 because of Dev Hell. There were four iterations, it was the Veilguard of its time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_IX ... evelopment

They were working on Wizardry: Stones of Arnhem back in 1993-1994, it did not go well. http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizard ... of-arnhem/ https://thebaneofqueequeg.blogspot.com/ ... irder.html

[rusty_shackleford]

they pivoted to SRPGs with the Heroes series so it's not like they ever stopped,

not even by the most stretched definition of tacticool RPG is HoMM an RPG

[Mordred]

well if you stretch role play and game really wide pretty much everything can become an rpg

Only conditions are that you play a role (so basically everything that has a player charachter) and a game (so it must have win and lose conditions)

So Duke Nukem is an RPG

[Tweed]

But unless they start talking to you about slavery and racism when you chose a black dude... i see no harm in that.

Found the Ultima VI fan.

[rusty_shackleford]

ultima was never good unless you're talking about ultima underworld(ultima-in-name-only)

[Tweed]

Every time I replay Ultima VII I like it less and less.

EDIT: I imagine by the time that guy who's making the isometic version gets done will be my last rodeo.

EDIT EDIT: I still like V though, it's the only good one and it has a fantastic aesthetic. That tile set makes me feel all warm and good inside.

[Mordred]

But unless they start talking to you about slavery and racism when you chose a black dude... i see no harm in that.

Found the Ultima VI fan.

no i only played vii and viii and ix starting with ix, I do own the other though. But the ones i played i liked (yes even ix) and i have a hard time recalling anything i would call woke in those.

Every time I replay Ultima VII I like it less and less.

EDIT: I imagine by the time that guy who's making the isometic version gets done will be my last rodeo.

EDIT EDIT: I still like V though, it's the only good one and it has a fantastic aesthetic. That tile set makes me feel all warm and good inside.

several questions: if you do not like it why do you replay it? And what exactly makes you dislike it? And what of that makes it "prime woke" (i think that what you wanted to say with p.woke)
isometric version? did i miss something? i only know of Exult
So i take it i should play v then?

[rusty_shackleford]

And what exactly makes you dislike it?

It's just a bad RPG from a system standpoint, it's made up for in multiple other ways(especially at the time) but having poor character building AND combat AND equipment/etc., means it's largely only remembered and rarely played by anyone but big Ultima fans
viewtopic.php?t=5024-ultima-vii

[Mordred]

hmm, that might be the case. i am somewhat of a storygamer i just go normal difficulty and try to immerse myself into the world i do not care much about the mechanics (except riddles i like riddles). That might be why i like it anyways.

[Xenich]

Don't know where it is now, but I do seem to recall Warren Spector bitching either after Ultima VII or Serpent Isle that people weren't interested in long games or RPGs anymore.

Well, one of them was an interview on the Codex: https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9190

There's no doubt RPG's were out of favor by the mid-90s. No doubt at all. People didn't seem to want fantasy stories or post-apocalypse stories anymore. They certainly didn't want isometric, 100 hour fantasy or post-apocalypse stories, that's for sure! I couldn't say why it happened, but it did. Everyone was jumping on the CD craze – it was all cinematic games and high-end graphics puzzle games… That was a tough time for me – I mean, picture yourself sitting in a meeting with a bunch of execs, trying to convince them to do all sorts of cool games and being told, "Warren, you're not allowed to say the word 'story' any more." Talk about a slap in the face, a bucket of cold water, a dose of reality.

If you ask me, the reason it all happened was that we assumed our audience wanted 100 hours of play and didn't care much about graphics. Even high end RPGs were pretty plain jane next to things like Myst and even our own Wing Commander series. I think we fell behind our audience in terms of the sophistication they expected and we catered too much to the hardcore fans. That can work when you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars – even a few million – but when games start costing many millions, you just can't make them for a relatively small audience of fans.

Doesn't hold up under scrutiny, there was no similar drought for RPGs on the console, the mid-90s arguably being a golden era for console RPGs

Yeah, and there were several that had multiple discs to change on them as well, not to mention this spurred massive memory card sales at the time.

[rusty_shackleford]

Was it doom?

[sheet]

Was it doom?

The 90s time period had cycles of PC vs. Console dominance. Mid to Late 1990s had PlayStation and JRPGs take over, PC was for the emergence of 3D graphics and FPSes. IMO

Edit: also Diablo

[Roguey]

Was it doom?

Possibly, that and Dune II, and the RPGs of the time not being able to hit those numbers.

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/20 ... -diablo-i-

“We’d been trying to pitch this game idea to a whole bunch of people...and they have said no, RPGs are dead. There is no way we are investing in an RPG,” said Brevik.

But after Silicon & Synapse became Blizzard and made Warcraft, they came back to Condor and heard the studio’s pitch for Diablo. They liked what they heard, and offered to publish the game.

“We were very excited, so we signed a contract to do Diablo,” remembers Brevik. The studio then had to figure out what, exactly, this turn-based isometric game it had been thinking about for so long would actually look like -- and how it would be angled and rendered on-screen.

“This was not easy back then...I kind of took a screengrab of X-Com, and we just took that, and put it right into Diablo,” said Brevik. “So the actual tile-square basis -- the same shape and size -- is exactly the same in X-Com and Diablo.”

So in a sense, says Brevik, the look and technology of Diablo is all based directly on a screenshot of X-Com.

Brevik also remembers that the decision to make Diablo real-time, rather than turn-based, as a controversial one. He said that, despite rumors to the contrary, it's not true that when Condor first pitched the game as a turn-based game, Blizzard said it was great -- but that it had to be real-time and multiplayer. That came later, after development of the game had begun in earnest.

“Eventually, Blizzard South, they approached us and said ‘well, we’d really like to make this a real-time game,’” recalls Brevik. At first, he says, he was adamantly against it -- he loved classic turn-based dungeon crawlers like Rogue, and he didn’t want to give up turns because giving players time to agonize over their decisions between turns could create so much "delicious" drama.

“‘Yeah,’ [Blizzard South] said, ‘but real-time will be better,’” said Brevik. So Blizzard North eventually put it to a vote, “and I voted no, but everyone else voted yes, so I said I guess we can do this.”