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Old World - Civilization meets Crusader Kings

For discussing tactical and strategy games. What's the difference between tactics and strategy anyways?
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Decline
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Old World - Civilization meets Crusader Kings

Post by Decline »

Now this might be a controversial take. But that's an excellent motivation to make a post about it in order to have another meaningless slap fight over computer games.



I consider Old World to be one of the best 4X made in the last decade and probably also one of the best ever made.

But decline, nobody plays Old World!

Yes, and I think these two facts - being the best and not being played - are closely connected. As is often the case.

To elaborate, OW is the brain child of Soren Johnson (yet another forgettable Swedish name), lead designer of Civ IV, considered by many to be peak Civ. Consequently, Old World feels familiar but it also wildly different to seasoned Civ players. One difference to Civ IV is that Old World is hugely complex but does an excellent job of hiding that complexity. This leads to the awkward situation that players don't notice the amount of depth the game has and believe it's just Civ VI but without the modern era. Not so.

One important difference to the Civ games is the Orders System in Old World. Scoffed at by many, I think it is an excellent addition to the game as it is able to consistently force the player into choosing the least bad from a limited set of terrible choices, without requiring the scope of the game to be reduced (i.e. Polytopia). Choices lead to consequences leading to the coveted emergent gameplay.

The tactical layer is also excellent. There are lots of possibilities upgrading and specializing your units and paying close attention to terrain will lead to real benefits. And you will need every advantage you can get because the AI is probably the best of any strategy game I have seen. It knows how to do tactical retreats and how to exploit terrain bonuses, wounded units or their weaknesses. And it will steal your city sites. :mad:

Then there's of course the dynastic character system. While clearly inspired by Crusader Kings it is not just a copy. The game's still focused on the nation you play and not the characters. You can in fact just ignore it completely if you want to have a more Civ-ike game. However, the character system ties into every aspect of the game, so making intelligent use of the cast of characters you are given will give you the advantages you require in order to beat your opponent.

There's a whole lot more innovations this game has that substantially improve upon the Civ base formula. But I am not going to list them here because I am too lazy.

Mohawk Games has adopted the Paradox business model: Selling lots of DLC. While some cry about that, it allowed Mohawk Games to continually expand and polish Old World since its release in 2020. Every part of the game has been fleshed out and expanded upon since release. Consequently it is fun, it's tight and it is easily the best 4X on the market and one of the best ever made.

Why then is nobody playing it?

Reason number 1: Epic Store exclusive at launch. I am not going to lose words about that one, except that it apparently is the reason that there still is a game today.

Reason number 2: Because it is a very good game. Hiding the complexity and possibilities behind an innocent Civ-like presentation leads to people scoffing at the game for not being engaging enough. The highest rated negative comment on Steam sums it up perfectly:

Honestly, the first half of the game is great. But the tricky part of designing any 4X game is sticking the landing and creating a game you'd actually want to finish, where growing and maintaining your empire late game still feels like a challenge with interesting and impactful decisions instead of something you mentally autopilot your way through in order to get to that victory screen for one reason or another, all while preparing dinner during the steadily increasing load times between turns.

Old world does not stick that landing. If anything, it lands on its neck, snapping its spinal cord and dying instantly.

He is wrong of course, with the exact opposite being true, but it idiomatic of the challenge this game has: You can autopilot through it, if you chose your settings right (or wrong?). The other negative reviews on Steam mostly follow the same pattern, with the opposite of what they're claiming is wrong with the game being true.

You see, Old World is a game designed the right way around. Multiplayer first and single player then just naturally flows from that. Just like in the good old days, when the Strategy Titans still walked the earth and squashed the fledgling Console Shooters under their feet like flies against a wall, when Microsoft Money was still just a whisper on the floors. But i digress.
The game wants you to min/max, hard. It wants you to squeeze out every teeny-tiny 0.6% increase of orders/turn. If you are playing a multiplayer match that is precisely what you want to be able to do in order to carry the game. However you do not have to do that in order to just play the game. But then you're making use of maybe 10% the game has to offer and are going to conclude that there's no difference to Civ IV and it's boring. In this sense Old World is a victim of its own quality.

And also people these day are ******* stupid.

Last edited by Decline on July 3rd, 2024, 00:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Hauberk »

Intriguing. How much poz is in the game?
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Post by gerey »

Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 08:39
Intriguing. How much poz is in the game?
Take a wild guess.

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Post by Finarfin »

gerey wrote: June 29th, 2024, 09:46
Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 08:39
Intriguing. How much poz is in the game?
Take a wild guess.

Image
What am I supposed to see here?
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Post by Element »

gerey wrote: June 29th, 2024, 09:46
Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 08:39
Intriguing. How much poz is in the game?
Take a wild guess.

Image
Are you referring to the game not making it at all clear that Pygmalion is king of Tyre, or that the Phoenicians aren't particularly good looking?
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Post by A Chinese opium den »

Element wrote: June 29th, 2024, 11:18
gerey wrote: June 29th, 2024, 09:46
Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 08:39
Intriguing. How much poz is in the game?
Take a wild guess.

Image
Are you referring to the game not making it at all clear that Pygmalion is king of Tyre, or that the Phoenicians aren't particularly good looking?
acerbas looks negroesque but I can't really tell if he is or not :Inspector:
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Post by Finarfin »

I was hoping to see Urartu/armenia being playable but no such luck.
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Post by Decline »

Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 08:39
Intriguing. How much poz is in the game?
About as much as in Civ IV.

However, the company is run by a woman: https://x.com/LeylaCatJ
Last edited by Decline on June 29th, 2024, 14:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by asf »

looks like civ5 lite
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Post by Hauberk »

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Post by Nooneatall »

Looks like a game for autistic ******* made by a dumb woman.
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Post by asf »

played a bit, it has some good stuff from civ4, but mostly ******** stuff from civ5, just play civ4 instead
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Post by Zothique »

Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 15:40
Decline wrote: June 29th, 2024, 14:13
However, the company is run by a woman: https://x.com/LeylaCatJ
I looked her up (as you always must do in this age). Apparently, she's Soren's wife. A random selection of quotes (the middle one says it all):

Image

I went from interested to no thanks. She's even married to a white **** man but somehow, she considers them enemies at the same time.
How did all of these self-hating white women end up in gamedev?
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Post by Hauberk »

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Post by Zothique »

Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 19:01
Zothique wrote: June 29th, 2024, 18:54
self-hating white women
She's lebanese, so it's a sand ******, not a white woman.
Well, I guess I can breathe a sign of relief now? /sarcasm
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Post by Hauberk »

If only.
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Post by Decline »

Hauberk wrote: June 29th, 2024, 15:40
I went from interested to no thanks. She's even married to a white **** man but somehow, she considers them enemies at the same time.
If you don't want ***** you've got the wrong hobby.
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Post by Finarfin »

Meh, **** game anyway. Way too many gay romans and too few based cultures.
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Post by Irenaeus »

Is there a mod to take out the ******* and women (same thing)?
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Post by Decline »

Irenaeus wrote: June 29th, 2024, 21:27
Is there a mod to take out the ******* and women (same thing)?
Do you mod them out of Crusader Kings as well?
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Post by Decline »


About This Content

Old World - Wrath of Gods introduces natural disasters to the base game in the form of nine calamities ranging from devastating droughts to map-changing earthquakes. Adapt to them and use them to your advantage, or watch your empire crumble under the forces of nature. Meanwhile, the playable kingdom of Aksum comes with its own leaders, character traits, units, projects, and buildings, and the new Wrath of Gods scenario features a multitude of unique mechanics to tell the mythical tale of a nation’s founding under the watchful eyes of its gods.

Old World - Wrath of Gods includes:

  • 9 calamities with significant gameplay effects – from terrain transformations that impact the strategic map to benefits for military units that have been suitably adapted. Wildfires, floods, tsunamis, hurricanes, plagues, droughts, sandstorms, volcanic eruptions, and earthquakes can devastate the world, and turn the tide of history itself.
  • A unique Wrath of Gods scenario telling the story of a nation’s founding – four nation-specific pagan gods will present their demands and expectations, rewarding the player with blessings when appeased, or striking them with calamities when enraged. Not all deities can be kept satisfied at all times, and each god’s level of wrath can be influenced through player actions – how will you choose which gods to favor?
  • 200+ new events tied to calamities and their consequences – rebuild after devastating natural disasters to show your resolve, mourn the loss of life with your people as a display of compassion, or seek opportunity in even the most dire of circumstances.
  • 26 new projects, 8 new character traits, and new missions to strengthen your nation as it faces the devastation and hardships of natural disasters. How will you care for those stricken by plague? Which projects will you undertake in response to floods and earthquakes?
  • Two new map scripts featuring unique game settings that transform the world as the years go on – from massive mountain ranges that become passable over time to islands with receding coastlines, dynamic terrain introduces strategic considerations that unlock new opportunities and threats.
In addition to the above, Wrath of Gods will introduce Aksum – one of the four great powers of the era, known in particular for its dominance in the Red Sea – as a new playable kingdom, alongside five historical leaders to choose from. Play as Kaleb or Ezana to focus on the religious aspects of Aksum, lead as the intimidating Gudit and use terror to manipulate your detractors, prosper as the cunning Makeda as she wields diplomacy to her advantage, or conquer as Gadarat himself, one of the earliest kings of Aksum, known for having expanded the city state into a mighty empire. Two new units, unique events, and unique character traits alongside additional missions, improvements, and buildings (including the renowned steles of Aksum) add an array of options to anyone who wishes to play as this powerful kingdom from the Horn of Africa.
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Post by Norfleet »

Decline wrote: June 29th, 2024, 02:04
You see, Old World is a game designed the right way around. Multiplayer first and single player then just naturally flows from that.
Strategery games do not generally work well in multiplayer because kids these days have cripplingly short attention spans. What design choices were made to make multiplayer actually practical?
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Post by Eyestabber »

I played Old World some time ago, maybe last year or before that. Mechanically it's a competent game, but it lacks soul and its community is a bunch of balance obsessed autists who consider history to be somehow beneath them. When I asked why the game never bothered to provide historical context to its wonders (like Civ always did) I was laughed for caring about unimportant issues. The real problem is ofc, a bunch of 5%/3% in MP balance and whether or not X/Y/Z unit is 10/20% better than the alternative. The games lures you in with a veneer of history, but then slaps you in the face with vagina rulers and Longbowmen (!?). If you're REALLY itching for a new 4x, give this one a "free trial", but you're unlikely to get mind blown by this. For a game that advertises itself as focusing in one specific era, OW has a TON of goofy anachronism, but it does work as a "What if Civ V wasn't hot garbage?" curiosity.
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Post by Decline »

Eyestabber wrote: May 5th, 2025, 23:40
Longbowmen (!?)
Some people in the antique did use long bows. The Longbow (of the English variety, which is the one the game displays) is merely the systematic application of this specific weapon as a part of a broader military strategy paired with the usual English Agitslop, it wasn't suddenly invented during the hundreds year's war. It is not inconceivable that the same military strategy could have occurred during antiquity.

Otherwise, yes Old World is not Civilizations, it is not 'standing the test of time', it is a war game set in the antique.
Last edited by Decline on June 14th, 2025, 16:28, edited 2 times in total.