The Wayward Realms

[Vergil]

A good article on it:

https://medium.com/@indigogaming/how-i- ... 8b327e50f3

Remember trolling them on their discord with The Wall pointing out that Julian had written zero lines of code after 2 and a half years, although it looks like it's finally in the pre-pre-pre-alpha stage now. I wouldn't get your hopes up, because it's never coming out.

I remember reading that article quite a while ago. Recently Indigo was on a podcast with bunch other YouTubers discussing the game about its kickstarter.

I remember in Plebeian TV’s video on Morrowind he tried to justify the hit chance system by playing a clip of some Japanese girl cutting a tatami mat which he probably gooned to. He somehow thought that this clip of a more skillful strike leading to superior damage to the target was a good argument against Skyrim’s skill to damage system, probably because he was distracted by feeling trans-validated by her kawaii celebration after the cut.

You managed to pack a lot of wrong, seethe, and copium into such a small post I'm impressed.
"You want your role playing game to have role playing stats and gameplay mechanics like hit chance???? You're insane... *continues whacking paddle swords at damage sponge enemies*"

[Brother Michael]

I remember reading that article quite a while ago. Recently Indigo was on a podcast with bunch other YouTubers discussing the game about its kickstarter.

I remember in Plebeian TV’s video on Morrowind he tried to justify the hit chance system by playing a clip of some Japanese girl cutting a tatami mat which he probably gooned to. He somehow thought that this clip of a more skillful strike leading to superior damage to the target was a good argument against Skyrim’s skill to damage system, probably because he was distracted by feeling trans-validated by her kawaii celebration after the cut.

You managed to pack a lot of wrong, seethe, and copium into such a small post I'm impressed.
"You want your role playing game to have role playing stats and gameplay mechanics like hit chance???? You're insane... *continues whacking paddle swords at damage sponge enemies*"

Morrowfags so sensitive that they hallucinate attacks on their sacred cow

[Vergil]

I remember in Plebeian TV’s video on Morrowind he tried to justify the hit chance system by playing a clip of some Japanese girl cutting a tatami mat which he probably gooned to. He somehow thought that this clip of a more skillful strike leading to superior damage to the target was a good argument against Skyrim’s skill to damage system, probably because he was distracted by feeling trans-validated by her kawaii celebration after the cut.

You managed to pack a lot of wrong, seethe, and copium into such a small post I'm impressed.
"You want your role playing game to have role playing stats and gameplay mechanics like hit chance???? You're insane... *continues whacking paddle swords at damage sponge enemies*"

Morrowfags so sensitive that they hallucinate attacks on their sacred cow

Defending Skyrim's combat "system" is an attack on all aspects of human reason not just Morrowind. Also this is the RPG subforum which it seems you don't like so I would suggest the general video games forum for you to post in.

[Brother Michael]

You managed to pack a lot of wrong, seethe, and copium into such a small post I'm impressed.
"You want your role playing game to have role playing stats and gameplay mechanics like hit chance???? You're insane... *continues whacking paddle swords at damage sponge enemies*"

Morrowfags so sensitive that they hallucinate attacks on their sacred cow

Defending Skyrim's combat "system" is an attack on all aspects of human reason not just Morrowind. Also this is the RPG subforum which it seems you don't like so I would suggest the general video games forum for you to post in.

Hey retard, I was saying that Patroclus TV’s example to defend Morrowind’s combat as realistic was self defeating. Your female instinct compelled you to interpret that as an attack on Morrowind.

But now that we’re here, the only difference between swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned health in a skill-to-damage system and swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned defense in a hit chance system are the sound effects.

[Vergil]

Hey retard, I was saying that Patroclus TV’s example to defend Morrowind’s combat as realistic was self defeating.

(It's not)

But now that we’re here, the only difference between swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned health in a skill-to-damage system and swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned defense in a hit chance system are the sound effects.

(It's also not)

[Brother Michael]

Hey retard, I was saying that Patroclus TV’s example to defend Morrowind’s combat as realistic was self defeating.

(It's not)

But now that we’re here, the only difference between swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned health in a skill-to-damage system and swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned defense in a hit chance system are the sound effects.

(It's also not)

5% of all posts and 0% of substance.

[Vergil]

Hey retard, I was saying that Patroclus TV’s example to defend Morrowind’s combat as realistic was self defeating.

(It's not)

But now that we’re here, the only difference between swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned health in a skill-to-damage system and swinging endlessly at an enemy with overtuned defense in a hit chance system are the sound effects.

(It's also not)

5% of all posts and 0% of substance.

(They have lots of substance)

[Oyster Sauce]

Winding up attacks feels better than anything stock Skyrim as to offer combatwise and it isn't even close. Felt so fucking good raining down strike upon strike on Tweed's fursona until he ran out of stamina and collapsed on the ground, pieces of his armor getting shattered because I wouldn't let up.

[rusty_shackleford]

if the attack lands there shouldn't be some hidden dice roll to say "akshually, no it didn't"

[maidenhaver]

Also would have thought that Starfield would have killed any hype around a modern proc-gen RPG.

No, because the assumption is that Daggerfall devs know how to make the kind of game Starfield should have been.

[rusty_shackleford]

Actually good ways to represent weapon skill in an action RPG:

new fighting styles
new combos
attack speed — windup, follow through, recovery.
improved parry window
being able to turn parries into ripostes
reduced stamina cost


Bad ways to represent weapon skill in an action RPG:
chance to hit after physically hitting the enemy with your weapon

[maidenhaver]

if the attack lands there shouldn't be some hidden dice roll to say "akshually, no it didn't"

The dice roll should have been glancing, regular, or crit.

[Toadknight]

I lost interest in this when I saw they decided to make it primarily a dungeon crawling game. For all the hate Skyrim gets I liked the crafting activities they introduced from a RPing perspective; some of my fondest playthroughs were playing as a hunter with weather and such mods. Or playing as a traveling blacksmith/minor who only encounters combat as part of his job.

It's further sad to see them discard that stuff because of the supposed focus on ProcGen. With good enough AI you could do cool stuff with that, like if you start selling a bunch of crafted weapons in a given city/village the established smith could react in various ways. You could get threatened, attacked, offered an apprenticeship, etc. That all would have been really unique.

[Xenich]

if the attack lands there shouldn't be some hidden dice roll to say "akshually, no it didn't"

Hmm... I guess the proper way to handle that would be to have hit rolls calculated in a manner before the graphical effect displayed so misses could be properly rendered graphically.

Which games do that?

Aside from that, I would much rather deal with the graphical mismatch than making the hit be an arcade style "physical" metric in an RPG as that pushes the game down the wrong path of play IMO.

[rusty_shackleford]

Aside from that, I would much rather deal with the graphical mismatch than making the hit be an arcade style "physical" metric in an RPG as that pushes the game down the wrong path of play IMO.

then stop playing action RPGs

[Xenich]

Aside from that, I would much rather deal with the graphical mismatch than making the hit be an arcade style "physical" metric in an RPG as that pushes the game down the wrong path of play IMO.

then stop playing action RPGs

It is a good tradeoff though for some RPG styles of play. It provides the "feel" of action, but retains most of the mechanics of the RPG structure. If you implement this style properly, you can avoid action cheesing that circumvents that part of the game play.

I don't have a problem generally with action RPGs, I just don't care for the "fake" RPG ones that overlay some pointless RPG system, but then allow the player to disregard it through that cheesing. Morrowind was a closer representation of trying to stick to RPG play (though still having some action cheese in it), but Oblivion took it to the next level allowing the cheese to greatly circumvent the RPG system.

[rusty_shackleford]

Aside from that, I would much rather deal with the graphical mismatch than making the hit be an arcade style "physical" metric in an RPG as that pushes the game down the wrong path of play IMO.

then stop playing action RPGs

It is a good tradeoff though for some RPG styles of play. It provides the "feel" of action, but retains most of the mechanics of the RPG structure. If you implement this style properly, you can avoid action cheesing that circumvents that part of the game play.

I don't have a problem generally with action RPGs, I just don't care for the "fake" RPG ones that overlay some pointless RPG system, but then allow the player to disregard it through that cheesing. Morrowind was a closer representation of trying to stick to RPG play (though still having some action cheese in it), but Oblivion took it to the next level allowing the cheese to greatly circumvent the RPG system.

Adding a dice roll to hit an RPG system does not make. Dice rolls exist in tabletop due to limitations of the medium.

[Rand]

if the attack lands there shouldn't be some hidden dice roll to say "akshually, no it didn't"

They actually wanted to have enemy parry/block/dodge graphics, but there was not enough space or time for it to be implemented.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Actually good ways to represent weapon skill in an action RPG:

new fighting styles
new combos
attack speed — windup, follow through, recovery.
improved parry window
being able to turn parries into ripostes
reduced stamina cost


Bad ways to represent weapon skill in an action RPG:
chance to hit after physically hitting the enemy with your weapon

Doesn’t Kingdom Deliverance have a similar combat system?

[Xenich]

then stop playing action RPGs

It is a good tradeoff though for some RPG styles of play. It provides the "feel" of action, but retains most of the mechanics of the RPG structure. If you implement this style properly, you can avoid action cheesing that circumvents that part of the game play.

I don't have a problem generally with action RPGs, I just don't care for the "fake" RPG ones that overlay some pointless RPG system, but then allow the player to disregard it through that cheesing. Morrowind was a closer representation of trying to stick to RPG play (though still having some action cheese in it), but Oblivion took it to the next level allowing the cheese to greatly circumvent the RPG system.

Adding a dice roll to hit an RPG system does not make. Dice rolls exist in tabletop due to limitations of the medium.

Dice rolls focus the game play on characters development, not the players twitch action. I would say that is a key element of RPG play.

I guess you could achieve the same result of limitation to development by granularizing action components of play to achieve the same results using strength, weight, agility, etc... combined with skill level, weapon function and makeup, etc... to restrict the players physical actions to those metrics. So the players movement, how fast they swing, how accurate it is, etc... are properly displayed graphically and inline with the statistics.

[rusty_shackleford]

It is a good tradeoff though for some RPG styles of play. It provides the "feel" of action, but retains most of the mechanics of the RPG structure. If you implement this style properly, you can avoid action cheesing that circumvents that part of the game play.

I don't have a problem generally with action RPGs, I just don't care for the "fake" RPG ones that overlay some pointless RPG system, but then allow the player to disregard it through that cheesing. Morrowind was a closer representation of trying to stick to RPG play (though still having some action cheese in it), but Oblivion took it to the next level allowing the cheese to greatly circumvent the RPG system.

Adding a dice roll to hit an RPG system does not make. Dice rolls exist in tabletop due to limitations of the medium.

Dice rolls focus the game play on characters development, not the players twitch action. I would say that is a key element of RPG play.

I guess you could achieve the same result of limitation to development by granularizing action components of play to achieve the same results using strength, weight, agility, etc... combined with skill level, weapon function and makeup, etc... to restrict the players physical actions to those metrics. So the players movement, how fast they swing, how accurate it is, etc... are properly displayed graphically and inline with the statistics.

RPGs are about simulation, not randomness.

[Xenich]

Actually good ways to represent weapon skill in an action RPG:

new fighting styles
new combos
attack speed — windup, follow through, recovery.
improved parry window
being able to turn parries into ripostes
reduced stamina cost


Bad ways to represent weapon skill in an action RPG:
chance to hit after physically hitting the enemy with your weapon

Doesn’t Kingdom Deliverance have a similar combat system?

Crap, I missed this mention by @rusty_shackleford , I agree with this take, but as for KCD it "tries" to do this, but is limited and still allows for a crap load of cheese in play. I guess that is the issue though, reaching a level of design where the action is entirely controlled by the statistics, but I have yet to see a game "truly" implement this entirely. They always fail to fully implement this to a level where cheese can't be applied.

[Xenich]

Adding a dice roll to hit an RPG system does not make. Dice rolls exist in tabletop due to limitations of the medium.

Dice rolls focus the game play on characters development, not the players twitch action. I would say that is a key element of RPG play.

I guess you could achieve the same result of limitation to development by granularizing action components of play to achieve the same results using strength, weight, agility, etc... combined with skill level, weapon function and makeup, etc... to restrict the players physical actions to those metrics. So the players movement, how fast they swing, how accurate it is, etc... are properly displayed graphically and inline with the statistics.

RPGs are about simulation, not randomness.

Randomness is an inherit factor in reality though. The issue I think is the representation of that within a game system. I don't care how skilled you are, factors are going to occur that are not consistent and it is that skill weighted to those elements of randomness which allow a person to adapt, but even so... even the best will "roll a 1" given the right circumstances. The question is if the system is controlling that, or the player in that action. I prefer the system to have greater control over that which is constrained to the choices in that characters development.

[rusty_shackleford]

Dice rolls focus the game play on characters development, not the players twitch action. I would say that is a key element of RPG play.

I guess you could achieve the same result of limitation to development by granularizing action components of play to achieve the same results using strength, weight, agility, etc... combined with skill level, weapon function and makeup, etc... to restrict the players physical actions to those metrics. So the players movement, how fast they swing, how accurate it is, etc... are properly displayed graphically and inline with the statistics.

RPGs are about simulation, not randomness.

Randomness is an inherit factor in reality though. The issue I think is the representation of that within a game system. I don't care how skilled you are, factors are going to occur that are not consistent and it is that skill weighted to those elements of randomness which allow a person to adapt, but even so... even the best will "roll a 1" given the right circumstances. The question is if the system is controlling that, or the player in that action. I prefer the system to have greater control over that which is constrained to the choices in that characters development.

The player is the source of randomness

[maidenhaver]

Games made by White Men for White Men are played on a gentleman's agreement. Always have been. Only niggers and babies cheese games, because their lives are so small that winning a game is to them like ascending to godhood. Cheesing can be funny, but if you play to cheese, you are a niggerbaby.

[Xenich]

RPGs are about simulation, not randomness.

Randomness is an inherit factor in reality though. The issue I think is the representation of that within a game system. I don't care how skilled you are, factors are going to occur that are not consistent and it is that skill weighted to those elements of randomness which allow a person to adapt, but even so... even the best will "roll a 1" given the right circumstances. The question is if the system is controlling that, or the player in that action. I prefer the system to have greater control over that which is constrained to the choices in that characters development.

The player is the source of randomness

Yes, but then this leans the game to an action game and at that point, it becomes fluff for carrot chasing.

The biggest problem with Action RPGs is the player circumventing the statistical constraints which are designed to limit to a progression of play. If those metrics aren't the constraints, the game becomes simply an arcade game.

I am not going to argue over RPG as a definition, rather I will simply say that the type of RPG I prefer in these cases are ones where it is "action simulated", but entirely controlled by the system as if it were a turn based game.

Ideally, the player would never be allowed to physically act outside of those boundaries. This would require as I said, a detailed granular system where numerous elements of the action a player takes is controlled by those metrics (similar to what you mentioned) to a level where no matter the "physical" approach to the play, the metrics do not allow it and the player is forced by the development of them to succeed.

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes, but then this leans the game to an action game and at that point,

No, the character is a gestalt. What you want is an autobattler.

[Rand]

The player is the source of randomness

So you don't like a simulation aspect where the NPC "rolls" to see if he manages a block or parry effectively or not, or manages to do a riposte in response?
I've played those kinds of games, and that leads to very robotic combats where the enemy always reacts identically and it's blatant.

Also, how does this jibe with stats, such as your character improving in strength so they have a greater chance of a penetrating blow on a hit, or slamming through an enemy's parry?

[rusty_shackleford]

So you don't like a simulation aspect where the NPC "rolls" to see if he manages a block or parry effectively or not, or manages to do a riposte in response?

How is rolling dice a simulation?

Also, how does this jibe with stats, such as your character improving in strength so they have a greater chance of a penetrating blow on a hit, or slamming through an enemy's parry?

…it works exactly like you listed?

[Xenich]

Games made by White Men for White Men are played on a gentleman's agreement. Always have been. Only niggers and babies cheese games, because their lives are so small that winning a game is to them like ascending to godhood. Cheesing can be funny, but if you play to cheese, you are a niggerbaby.

Cheese is not a flaw always a with the player, but often poorly thought out design.

It is natural in a game to find clever ways to overcome an obstacle. This is the essence of game play, to win, to beat a game.

I understand what you are getting at though, but when I play a game I don't constantly check the manual and worry myself with "Is this what they intended? "Am I playing the game right?", rather I see an obstacle and I attempt to find a solution to it within the game by any means that produces a success.

For instance, Feign Death pulling is essentially a "cheese" mechanic in EQ. It was never intended to be applied in that manner, yet it was a solution that actually was a very clever and required skill to master.

Kiting in some games is often a "cheese" mechanic, something that was never intended by the developer, yet... again, it was a natural progression to defeat encounters by pushing the limits.

These are problems however that action games introduce though when they try to hybrid RPG systems. The action component always ends up cheesing the intended limitations of the statistical play often at the most basic interaction.