Nevergrind Online

[Kalarion]

I got interested in this from the Codex thread. I thought I'd start a thread over here.

Started playing online today, it's fun so far.

You level very quickly, at least for the first 10 levels. I was getting at least 1 level per dungeon run. I believe the cap is 95 or 99, so no idea if it holds true throughout. It causes low-key stress, trying to keep skills at cap each level.

The game is very obviously an Early Access product, but it's playable up through the level cap and group dynamics are already a ton of fun. Lots of basic QoL stuff that's expected from a finished product aren't present yet. So you have several chat/log windows, but no way to parse them, no way to customize data etc. The skill bar is currently pre-set (each class has 10 abilities that are locked to a specific slot), no idea if it will be expanded or changed later in development. For now, even though customizable skill bars and expansive skill selection are kinda expected in MMOs I find it surprisingly easy to play with and fun. Everything is bare-bones. So far loot/itemization has been a straight rip from Diablo (including some randomly generated item names :-D), don't know if you can get unique equipment or not. I assume you can but I haven't seen any.

Grouping dynamics are a lot of fun so far. You're not going to see FF XI levels of group skill expression, but there's room for all classes to be useful.

Speaking of groups, classes are in the middle of receiving unique talent trees to go with their skills. Currently 4 (of 14) have completed their overhauls.
- Tanks have Shadow Knights and Warriors
- no DPS classes have talent trees yet
- Healers have Shamans
- Utility has Templars
The dev looks to be doing about 1 class per month, so a pretty decent clip.

There is no exploration to speak of. Dungeons are randomly generated and allow for some interaction. I'm totally fine with it so far. Honestly with a little work the dungeon exploration could be a lot of fun even in a bare-bones state.

​I'll post more later.

[Kalarion]

I was wrong, hotkeys can be switched around on the ability bar.

Groups make a big difference. You can definitely feel the difference between solo and group in killing time, xp gained, and items found. Not to mention challenge (monsters hit harder and more accurately, and more show up in each encounter). Grouping was the only time I felt in serious fear of dying

When I said itemization is a straight rip from Diablo II, it turns out I was 100% correct. There are standard, exceptional and elite item tiers, each with set and unique items. As I said I'm not a big fan of that kind of loot progression, especially in an MMO-lite like this, but it's at least functional and pretty fleshed out (there's sets and uniques for all classes, at all levels).

Talents start off super boring (+x% damage to y ability), but later on (starting around character level 30 or so) you get access to talents that "improve" a given skill. These look more interesting, adding different effects to their skill as well as large bonuses. I'm still low level, I'll report more on high level talents when I get there.

Solo so far is perfectly viable. I'm a Shadow Knight, ostensibly one of the Tank classes, but I can kill anything I come across pretty easily and simply running once through each dungeon is (so far) enough for me to outscale everything. It's possible to leapfrog the standard level/challenge progression by taking on tougher dungeon chains first, I'm starting to think I should have done that. I didn't though, and as a result I'm 3-5 levels ahead of my current dungeons.

[Goth-Girl-Supremacy]

Looks insanely ugly and mobile-like. Hope it fails and the developers learn a lesson from releasing this shit into the wild.

[somerandomdude]

I played the game a bit near launch back when the level cap was 50, and there was a month window or so where a 100-200+ players were online and you could easily find teams. The problem now is it's an online game with a 30 day average of 35 players according to steamcharts. Not only has the population tanked, but the few who do play are now split across a wider level range - the level cap was raised to 99, and there's 2 additional difficulty levels. Most of the classes can solo well, any of the sturdier DPS classes (Monk, Ranger, Rogue), and any of the tank classes. Cleric can solo fairly well because they can wear plate, and plenty of enemies are weak vs their damage.

Also, there's some advantages for playing solo offline. The drop rates are a little bit better (not hugely better), you have unlimited stash space, and the potion cooldown is lower. Given that the population isn't high enough to really reap the advantages of team play with the current activity levels, you're better off playing solo-offline, IMO.

[Kalarion]

Yes, this is not a game you go into expecting to just drop into random groups immediately. Although from my experience, groups at diverse level ranges are generally available throughout the day, especially since there's a largish Japanese cohort that plays on off-hours.

I can see solo play getting boring, but so far it hasn't happened for me. Right as I was thinking I was just going to be allowed to casually outscale everything I started running into bosses that can easily slaughter me on my own, unless I grind to get like +10 levels on them. Monsters started coming in smart class combinations as well, meaning I had to think through targeting priorities, ability range and my build for the first time. That's injected a bit of freshness into solo play for me.

Group play is just plain fun. Number and power of mobs go up pretty fast with just a second person added to the team, and maximum group size is 5. At that point, you're going to be making decisions at or near the level of EQ group dynamics (targeting assignments, extra duties like stun/offtank/offheal etc).

My biggest concerns right now are itemization and "exploration"/ambience. In my opinion Diablo II imitation won't be a good fit for a proper MMO, even one as bare-bones and lite as this one. You're going to want some kind of serious motivation to go spelunking in a given dungeon, and infinite grinding for random loot isn't going to cut it. People need the desire of attaining an FBSS, or working towards a Soulfire. This relates to the ambience. Dungeons are functional, but they're completely randomly generated on entrance, and navigation is akin to Darkest Dungeon. Not good for longevity, there's no investment in the content (contra EQ, where everyone had their favorite dungeons for one reason or another). Even some very simple additions would make it much more enjoyable; you could make each dungeon large and hand-crafted, with a mix of rooms (some with fixed encounters, some with randomized events, and some with a chance to spawn a specific named mob, for instance). Instead of 1-2 static random encounters in hallways, you could make mob groups that roam the hallways, moving each time you enter a room. It would give you strategic decision-making (do I go the long way around to avoid a fight, or just try to bull through?), as well as the potential to introduce interesting or useful non-combat abilities to each class (rangers could scout enemy patrol composition, rogues could set traps to give big initial debuffs on combat start, stuff like that). All of this can be implemented with a very minimal change/addition of graphics.

On the plus side for loot, equipment upgrades usually feel impactful immediately. Last night I was grouping with some rando working on one of his alts, he saw I had sub-par weapons and handed me something appropriate to my level. My DPS immediately tripled . For dungeons, each dungeon chain has its own unique art for room backgrounds and corridors, a big plus for a $12 game IMO.

Like I said, there's a working and fun skeleton here, but it does need work. I'm glad it's in Early Access.

Looks insanely ugly and mobile-like. Hope it fails and the developers learn a lesson from releasing this shit into the wild.

I can see the argument for ugly. In its defense it at least has a consistent art style, so that's something. I don't think it looks like a mobile game personally, what gives you that impression?

[Gregz]

Pros:

Best use of AI art I have ever seen
Excellent D2-style itemization, including sets
Nostalgic EverQuest sound fonts
Nostalgic EverQuest mobs
Excellent writing
Gameplay loop is simple, but well done
Flat $12 price up front with no P2W elements
Group play is satisfying

Cons:

Exploration is almost nil
Gameplay loop is simple, one step above mobile tier
Only a dozen or so people online at a time, groups can be sparse
Talents are only partially implemented

[Ranselknulf]

Didn't someone make an EQ Browser app at some point, where you could play everquest in a standard internet browser?

[Nevergrind Online]

Didn't someone make an EQ Browser app at some point, where you could play everquest in a standard internet browser?

No, EQbrowser was in development and it was teased in a few videos, but I don't think it was ever released in any official capacity. Maybe you're thinking of the original Nevergrind, which is EverQuest-like. It's a single-player RPG and it is the predecessor to Nevergrind Online. Eventually, it will make its way to Steam as well when I find the time. Many have forgotten this, but in its earliest stages, Nevergrind had actual cropped backgrounds and monsters from EverQuest. It originally started as an EverQuest fan game. Eventually, I decided to change it because I wanted to monetize it, so I came up with my own assets.

Evidence of the now defunct EQ-Nevergrind version only exists in very old YouTube videos.

[Nevergrind Online]

Tyen was working on EQbrowser. The latest info I can find is on the Fires of Heaven forum.

https://www.firesofheaven.org/threads/e ... date.5459/

[Kalarion]

Welcome to the forum @Nevergrind Online! I assume you caught this thread on a monthly search for mentions or something?

While you're here, what are your thoughts on my earlier post?:

My biggest concerns right now are itemization and "exploration"/ambience. In my opinion Diablo II imitation won't be a good fit for a proper MMO, even one as bare-bones and lite as this one. You're going to want some kind of serious motivation to go spelunking in a given dungeon, and infinite grinding for random loot isn't going to cut it. People need the desire of attaining an FBSS, or working towards a Soulfire. This relates to the ambience. Dungeons are functional, but they're completely randomly generated on entrance, and navigation is akin to Darkest Dungeon. Not good for longevity, there's no investment in the content (contra EQ, where everyone had their favorite dungeons for one reason or another). Even some very simple additions would make it much more enjoyable; you could make each dungeon large and hand-crafted, with a mix of rooms (some with fixed encounters, some with randomized events, and some with a chance to spawn a specific named mob, for instance). Instead of 1-2 static random encounters in hallways, you could make mob groups that roam the hallways, moving each time you enter a room. It would give you strategic decision-making (do I go the long way around to avoid a fight, or just try to bull through?), as well as the potential to introduce interesting or useful non-combat abilities to each class (rangers could scout enemy patrol composition, rogues could set traps to give big initial debuffs on combat start, stuff like that). All of this can be implemented with a very minimal change/addition of graphics.

I looked at your roadmap and didn't see anything at all regarding exploration, esp re: reworking or overhauling the dungeon system and navigation. Any plans for that in the future?

I assume the best place to talk/ask questions is your Steam forums and a Discord if you have it. Do you monitor active threads on other forums though (like this one)?

[Nevergrind Online]

Welcome to the forum @Nevergrind Online! I assume you caught this thread on a monthly search for mentions or something?

While you're here, what are your thoughts on my earlier post?:

My biggest concerns right now are itemization and "exploration"/ambience. In my opinion Diablo II imitation won't be a good fit for a proper MMO, even one as bare-bones and lite as this one. You're going to want some kind of serious motivation to go spelunking in a given dungeon, and infinite grinding for random loot isn't going to cut it. People need the desire of attaining an FBSS, or working towards a Soulfire. This relates to the ambience. Dungeons are functional, but they're completely randomly generated on entrance, and navigation is akin to Darkest Dungeon. Not good for longevity, there's no investment in the content (contra EQ, where everyone had their favorite dungeons for one reason or another). Even some very simple additions would make it much more enjoyable; you could make each dungeon large and hand-crafted, with a mix of rooms (some with fixed encounters, some with randomized events, and some with a chance to spawn a specific named mob, for instance). Instead of 1-2 static random encounters in hallways, you could make mob groups that roam the hallways, moving each time you enter a room. It would give you strategic decision-making (do I go the long way around to avoid a fight, or just try to bull through?), as well as the potential to introduce interesting or useful non-combat abilities to each class (rangers could scout enemy patrol composition, rogues could set traps to give big initial debuffs on combat start, stuff like that). All of this can be implemented with a very minimal change/addition of graphics.

I looked at your roadmap and didn't see anything at all regarding exploration, esp re: reworking or overhauling the dungeon system and navigation. Any plans for that in the future?

I assume the best place to talk/ask questions is your Steam forums and a Discord if you have it. Do you monitor active threads on other forums though (like this one)?

The roadmap has a lot planned for Nevergrind Online, but exploration is not heavily emphasized in NGO. We do plan to add more to the randomized dungeons, such as more room type variety. The original vision was always taking the Darkest Dungeon game loop and combining it with aspect of RPGs like Diablo 2, EverQuest, Phantasy Star, and World of Warcraft. In the early phases, I did consider something like traps, scouting, and other skills. I ended up scrapping it because I couldn't think of a way to design it where it actually made it a better game within a multiplayer context. Certain types of game mechanics just work better in single-player games. For that reason, I stuck to a combat-focused + treasure hunting game loop. That said, I do think I could add a few more interesting room/hallway/relic mechanics.

Before full release, the major features include completion of all talent trees, a bazaar feature, a crafting system, an ascension system, hardcore mode, improved itemization, and more. We may even do a mercenary system, but I'm not sure about that.

I monitor the Steam forums, but the Nevergrind Online Discord Server is the most active part of our community. I regularly monitor google and YouTube results, filtered by results within the last week, which is how I found this thread.

[Gregz]

Welcome to the forum @Nevergrind Online! I assume you caught this thread on a monthly search for mentions or something?

While you're here, what are your thoughts on my earlier post?:

My biggest concerns right now are itemization and "exploration"/ambience. In my opinion Diablo II imitation won't be a good fit for a proper MMO, even one as bare-bones and lite as this one. You're going to want some kind of serious motivation to go spelunking in a given dungeon, and infinite grinding for random loot isn't going to cut it. People need the desire of attaining an FBSS, or working towards a Soulfire. This relates to the ambience. Dungeons are functional, but they're completely randomly generated on entrance, and navigation is akin to Darkest Dungeon. Not good for longevity, there's no investment in the content (contra EQ, where everyone had their favorite dungeons for one reason or another). Even some very simple additions would make it much more enjoyable; you could make each dungeon large and hand-crafted, with a mix of rooms (some with fixed encounters, some with randomized events, and some with a chance to spawn a specific named mob, for instance). Instead of 1-2 static random encounters in hallways, you could make mob groups that roam the hallways, moving each time you enter a room. It would give you strategic decision-making (do I go the long way around to avoid a fight, or just try to bull through?), as well as the potential to introduce interesting or useful non-combat abilities to each class (rangers could scout enemy patrol composition, rogues could set traps to give big initial debuffs on combat start, stuff like that). All of this can be implemented with a very minimal change/addition of graphics.

I looked at your roadmap and didn't see anything at all regarding exploration, esp re: reworking or overhauling the dungeon system and navigation. Any plans for that in the future?

I assume the best place to talk/ask questions is your Steam forums and a Discord if you have it. Do you monitor active threads on other forums though (like this one)?

The roadmap has a lot planned for Nevergrind Online, but exploration is not heavily emphasized in NGO. We do plan to add more to the randomized dungeons, such as more room type variety. The original vision was always taking the Darkest Dungeon game loop and combining it with aspect of RPGs like Diablo 2, EverQuest, Phantasy Star, and World of Warcraft. In the early phases, I did consider something like traps, scouting, and other skills. I ended up scrapping it because I couldn't think of a way to design it where it actually made it a better game within a multiplayer context. Certain types of game mechanics just work better in single-player games. For that reason, I stuck to a combat-focused + treasure hunting game loop. That said, I do think I could add a few more interesting room/hallway/relic mechanics.

Before full release, the major features include completion of all talent trees, a bazaar feature, a crafting system, an ascension system, hardcore mode, improved itemization, and more. We may even do a mercenary system, but I'm not sure about that.

I monitor the Steam forums, but the Nevergrind Online Discord Server is the most active part of our community. I regularly monitor google and YouTube results, filtered by results within the last week, which is how I found this thread.

Welcome to the forum.

Exploration is not heavily emphasized in NGO. We do plan to add more to the randomized dungeons, such as more room type variety. The original vision was always taking the Darkest Dungeon game loop and combining it with aspect of RPGs like Diablo 2, EverQuest, Phantasy Star, and World of Warcraft. In the early phases, I did consider something like traps, scouting, and other skills. I ended up scrapping it because I couldn't think of a way to design it where it actually made it a better game within a multiplayer context.

Instead of adding features to exploration, why not streamline the gameplay experience? The confused combination of cardinal exploration (↑↓←→) on the map, and the first-person "WASD" movement perspective, is not intuitive. It's confusing and cumbersome to use even after quite a bit of practice. It should be one or the other, but I'm not exactly sure what to recommend as a replacement.

Before full release, the major features include completion of all talent trees, a bazaar feature, a crafting system, an ascension system, hardcore mode, improved itemization, and more. We may even do a mercenary system, but I'm not sure about that.

Please consider prioritizing inventory/bank/QOL features. Especially a sort function that can sort bank tabs by: Item Level, Rarity, Set Name, etc., on a page-by-page basis. Lots of play time is lost while trying to sort/inventory/sell/trade the bank tabs. Inventory management is cumbersome, and it delays other players waiting to get into the next dungeon.

Lastly, the AI portraits are excellent, but they look a bit too "samey". Please consider adding a bit more variety into those portraits. I have skipped more than a few race/class combinations just because of the portraits.

Thanks for making such a great game!

[Nevergrind Online]

Thanks for all of the feedback... bank sorting has definitely been requested quite a bit... I'll get around to it eventually. Just FYI, there's also a public Trello board for NGO. It's the closest thing to what the inside of my brain looks like.

[Nevergrind Online]

Looks insanely ugly and mobile-like. Hope it fails and the developers learn a lesson from releasing this shit into the wild.

Thanks for the feedback. Thinking about adding a Goth Girl Supremacy Corset to the game.

Edit: if it's any consolation, it's never coming to mobile. It'll never have micropayments either.

[rusty_shackleford]

So is this worth trying out if you liked EQ @Kalarion?

[Kalarion]

Not for that reason, no. There are clear EQ influences but the biggest "parent" to gameplay is very much Diablo II and other games where the primary focus is slaughtering mobs for randomized loot.

If you want to scratch the EQ itch in a simple, easy to pick up format, I'd recommend the single-player, browser-based version instead.

Optionally just wait for Monsters and Memories, and join their playtesting sessions when they pop up

[somerandomdude]

I like the browser based nevergrind game better than this version, and it's free to play. The only thing nevergrind online brings is multiplayer, but in most every other category, I think the browser version did better, including on classes, itemization, skill trees, and the combat. In the browser based version, there's no crummy dungeon exploration (let's be real, no exploration is better than bad exploration IMO), and the combat is nonstop action, you pull what you think you can kill, and you're rewarded for doing high chains with higher exp and more/better loot.

[Nevergrind Online]

I like the browser based nevergrind game better than this version, and it's free to play. The only thing nevergrind online brings is multiplayer, but in most every other category, I think the browser version did better, including on classes, itemization, skill trees, and the combat. In the browser based version, there's no crummy dungeon exploration (let's be real, no exploration is better than bad exploration IMO), and the combat is nonstop action, you pull what you think you can kill, and you're rewarded for doing high chains with higher exp and more/better loot.

Thanks for the feedback! Call me biased, but I like Nevergrind Online better because it has made 67 times the revenue in 1/8 of the time. Perhaps NG1 can catch up after it makes its debut on Steam? Who knows? I suppose some aspects of the class design could have been more like Nevergrind 1, but I had to develop NGO with different design considerations in mind. I had to design with cooperative multiplayer real-time gameplay synchronized across a global network and limited server resources in mind. Due to a limited budget, this necessitates quite a few design adjustments such as intentional client-side bottlenecks on various player actions. That's why even AAA games like FFXIV have a slow global cooldown. Overall, I think NGO has been quite successful for an early access game that was developed on a $20,000 development budget in my spare time (I have a full-time job). It had some bumps along the way due to its necessary growing pains, but the state of the game has improved significantly in 2023—as evinced by its 94% Steam score this year.

Either way, I'm looking forward to full release. The final product should be quite a unique value to whoever manages to discover it.

[somerandomdude]

I like the browser based nevergrind game better than this version, and it's free to play. The only thing nevergrind online brings is multiplayer, but in most every other category, I think the browser version did better, including on classes, itemization, skill trees, and the combat. In the browser based version, there's no crummy dungeon exploration (let's be real, no exploration is better than bad exploration IMO), and the combat is nonstop action, you pull what you think you can kill, and you're rewarded for doing high chains with higher exp and more/better loot.

Thanks for the feedback! Call me biased, but I like Nevergrind Online better because it has made 67 times the revenue in 1/8 of the time. Perhaps NG1 can catch up after it makes its debut on Steam? Who knows? I suppose some aspects of the class design could have been more like Nevergrind 1, but I had to develop NGO with different design considerations in mind. I had to design with cooperative multiplayer real-time gameplay synchronized across a global network and limited server resources in mind. Due to a limited budget, this necessitates quite a few design adjustments such as intentional client-side bottlenecks on various player actions. That's why even AAA games like FFXIV have a slow global cooldown. Overall, I think NGO has been quite successful for an early access game that was developed on a $20,000 development budget in my spare time (I have a full-time job). It had some bumps along the way due to its necessary growing pains, but the state of the game has improved significantly in 2023—as evinced by its 94% Steam score this year.

Either way, I'm looking forward to full release. The final product should be quite a unique value to whoever manages to discover it.

Yes, I understand that NGO turned a solid profit, and it's good to see small devs succeeding. If you're considering pushing this game to another platform, I think it could do pretty well on the Nintendo Switch. Switch SDKs only run about $450, have you considered the possibility of doing this?

[Nevergrind Online]

Yes, I understand that NGO turned a solid profit, and it's good to see small devs succeeding. If you're considering pushing this game to another platform, I think it could do pretty well on the Nintendo Switch. Switch SDKs only run about $450, have you considered the possibility of doing this?

I have been considering that. NGO is really dependent on having a mouse and I think it'd be a bad experience without one. Maybe Gog? Not sure what other platforms are worth the effort. I'm too focused on Steam and version 1.0 for now.

[Kalarion]

Small update, I played Wizard, Druid and Monk post-talents. All fun. Wizard was by far my favorite.

I probably won't plow much more time into it now that I've completed the Normal campaign. I'm just not much interested in a first-person, multiplayer blobber following Diablo 2 so closely. But to those who want a fun, light loot grind, I highly recommend this game.

[Sweeper]

I fucking do love it when a developer has the foresight to make an offline mode. And I just got my Imcando hammer drop as I wrote this post. Gonna have to buy this for the RNG karma (after the League).