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Fudging is Lying

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Fudging is Lying

Post by WhiteShark »

P is Point and R is Response.

P: As the GM, I should fudge rolls.
R: No. Fudging rolls is lying and antithetical to the nature of RPGs.

P: Fudging rolls is like bluffing in poker, not lying.
R: Laughably untrue. In poker your bluff can be called and you can safely show it afterwards. In tabletop, on the other hand, players aren't allowed to call the GM's bluff, and as a GM you can never admit to your players that you fudge at all, let alone which rolls in particular, for if you do, you lose their trust forever, just as if you had lied to them... because you did.

P: Fudging rolls makes the game more dramatic.
R: False. Drama comes from genuine risk. If the GM dictates the outcomes, there is no risk.

P: Fudging rolls makes the game more entertaining for the players.
R: False. Player agency and a consistent world are the central draws of tabletop RPGs. If the GM arbitrarily decides outcomes, players are robbed of agency and the world loses consistency.

P: Fudging to save a PC results in more fun than letting the dice kill him.
R: It only seems that way in the moment. In the long term, losing a character to the dice is more entertaining than ceasless 'close calls' and trite 'dramatically appropriate' deaths; furthermore, it teaches players the value of caution and planning ahead.

P: My player won't have anything to do for the rest of the session, or even the adventure, if I don't fudge to save his PC.
R: Every player should have at least one backup PC ready to introduce at the earliest opportunity and the party should have followers/hirelings for the player to manage. It is rarely diffuclt for the GM to find a reason for a new PC to arrive.

P: My player will be sad if I don't fudge to save his PC.
R: Get a different player or play a game where the stakes aren't life and death.

P: It sucks when a random crit kills a PC at the beginning of a battle, so I should fudge to prevent that.
R: Instead, play a game with player-facing mechanics to prevent untimely deaths (bennies in Savage Worlds, Luck in GURPS, etc.), or play a game with weaker crits, or play a game where death isn't on the table. There are many options that don't reuiqre lying and arbitrarily overriding the rules.

P: Fudging rolls makes the game more entertaining for the GM.
R: False. Truly unexpected outcomes are more entertaining than making the players act out your script.

P: Every GM fudges rolls.
R: Patently false. You can find people all over the internet talking about how they roll openly and always have.

P: Gygax/AD&D said fudging is the GM's perogative:
► Show Spoiler
R: Gygax is wrong. The GM should be impartial at the table. If, as in this example, your prep would be ruined by the party missing a clue, then you should have prepped differently or not hidden the clue.

P: The players won't notice.
R: They will, and once they notice, their trust in you will be gone forever. After every close call they will always have that doubt lurking in the back of their minds: "Did we really succeed or was it just GM fiat?"

P: No, really, I'm a good liar. My players will never notice.
R: I don't believe you. There are always tells. Even supposing you were right, it would at best mean your players are brain dead.

P: Building the setting and NPCs is just as arbitrary as fudging rolls.
R: As creator of the world the GM is necessarily arbitrary away from the table, but at game time he is a referee, with all the impartiality that implies. Moreover, arbitrary though they must be, the setting and NPCs are mere starting points, not outcomes. There are often ways for smart players to overcome or avoid even overwhelming obstacles, but there is no recourse for players when the GM begins dictating rolls.

P: The GM must fudge to keep the game on course.
R: There's no such thing as 'on course' because tabletop RPGs aren't novels or plays. If you, as the GM, have an unalterable 'course' of events planned out in advance, you should be writing a book instead.

P: It's ok to fudge if I do it rarely.
R: If you fudge any roll they all become fudged, in a sense, because you accept the idea that only outcomes of which you approve will be allowed to stand.

P: There's no right or wrong way to run a game, so don't tell me not to fudge.
R: If your players like knowingly LARPing your novel, more power to you. It's still lying if you pretend that's not what you're doing, though.

I won't respond to any post raising points already addressed here.
Last edited by WhiteShark on July 17th, 2023, 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
MadPreacher

Post by MadPreacher »

I find it humorous that your points are contradicted by Saint Gary directly plus telling people to play games where death isn't an option. :lol:
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Post by Ranselknulf »

A proper story teller won't have to fudge rolls.

They would set up the roll in question with an appropriate bad outcome that won't destroy the game and narrative. Ie.. rolling a 1 on lighting a torch wouldn't result in you burning to death, but possibly burning ur hand or clothes catching fire which would allow for other game play actions to occur (ie.. stop drop and roll or ur fellow players try to douse the fire).

Out right fudging rolls to prevent death is kinda stupid, I agree with that much.

P: It sucks when a random crit kills a PC at the beginning of a battle, so I should fudge to prevent that.
R: Instead, play a game with player-facing mechanics to prevent untimely deaths (bennies in Savage Worlds, Luck in GURPS, etc.), or play a game with weaker crits, or play a game where death isn't on the table. There are many options that don't reuiqre lying and arbitrarily overriding the rules.

I think this is the right option, make death / dying mechanics and allow for a chance to recover unless its some overpowering death blow, like getting consumed by dragon fire or getting crushed by a huge boulder falling off a mountain.
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Post by Acrux »

WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 15:19
There are many options that don't reuiqre lying and arbitrarily overriding the rules.
DMs arbitrarily override the rules all the time (see Rule Zero).

For instance, sometimes a player wants to roll for something and I don't even set a DC for it. If they roll sufficiently high in my opinion, they pass.

Have I fudged the roll or not?

Also, "lol, bro, just play a different system" seems like really weird advice for a minor problem.
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Post by WhiteShark »

Acrux wrote: July 17th, 2023, 17:18
WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 15:19
There are many options that don't reuiqre lying and arbitrarily overriding the rules.
DMs arbitrarily override the rules all the time (see Rule Zero).

For instance, sometimes a player wants to roll for something and I don't even set a DC for it. If they roll sufficiently high in my opinion, they pass.

Have I fudged the roll or not?
Using rule zero to adjudicate a situation not covered by the rules is totally fine. That's the correct time to use rule zero, which is necessary because no system is 100% comprehensive. Going against the established rules on a whim for dramatic effect or some other trite reason is fudging.

EDIT: Invoking rule zero to avoid a lengthy rules debate or because you don't actually know the rule in question and can't spend the time looking it up is also reasonable, if not ideal. Those aren't the same thing as fudging rolls using known rules just because the GM wants a certain outcome.
Acrux wrote: July 17th, 2023, 17:18
Also, "lol, bro, just play a different system" seems like really weird advice for a minor problem.
Whatever solution one chooses, it should be codified and known to the players, so a houserule works just as well. What isn't a minor problem is when your players cease to trust that the GM's rolls are organic, either carelessly throwing themselves into danger knowing the GM won't let anything too bad happen to them or losing interest in the game entirely.
Last edited by WhiteShark on July 17th, 2023, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WhiteShark »

MadPreacher wrote: July 17th, 2023, 16:28
I find it humorous that your points are contradicted by Saint Gary directly plus telling people to play games where death isn't an option. :lol:
If you or your players are too scared of character death to let it happen when the dice say it should, why play a game in which that's a not-insignificant possibility? You can't laugh at people who play games where dying is off the table while simultaneously breaking the rules of the game you do play to prevent character death.
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Post by Acrux »

@WhiteShark do you see a difference between a DM fudging a roll versus lowering (or raising) the HP of an enemy during a fight?

As one example - what if a fight has been going for a while and an enemy has 2 HP left after being attacked. Is it cheating/lying for the DM to just declare that enemy dead (i.e. the player effectively does 2 more damage than was rolled)?

Also, what about a DM hand-waving the end of a fight if the players have basically defeated all of the enemies except for a couple of stragglers?

What about giving a player "inspiration" or "hero points" to re-roll?
Last edited by Acrux on July 17th, 2023, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
MadPreacher

Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 19:47
MadPreacher wrote: July 17th, 2023, 16:28
I find it humorous that your points are contradicted by Saint Gary directly plus telling people to play games where death isn't an option. :lol:
If you or your players are too scared of character death to let it happen when the dice say it should, why play a game in which that's a not-insignificant possibility? You can't laugh at people who play games where dying is off the table while simultaneously breaking the rules of the game you do play to prevent character death.
My players aren't afraid of dying and we're playing AD&D 2E properly. I don't go out of my way to kill characters and I expect them to think about any situation they find themselves in. You can read the campaign log to see that they have a selection of three general choices that they use. They are: parlay, combat, or run away. They can come up with a fourth option like calling Daddy Malignost the greater god.

The use of fudging depends upon two major factors.

1: The character is the main protagonist for a special character arc.
2: The area of where the character dies.

In the first case, if the main protagonist dies before the final resolution of the game there is no further story to do for that character. The story has zero impact for the rest of the group. The party can get revenge and finish up the story if they so choose.

In the second case, if a character dies in the middle of an area that is far from civilization you will have a player sitting out of the game for the next few sessions. In my case, that's 2 weeks for every session. That's 2 sessions a month usually. That's not right to the player to force them onto the sidelines.

There is no way to overcome the first one. Main character dies and the story ends for him. Player creates a new character at the same power level as before the gets introduced as normal.

The way to overcome the second case is by having a pool of characters for every player. One of them is the main and the rest function as hirelings/henchmen that are all related to the main. If the main dies then a henchman is the new main character. It works great for my current campaign.
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 17th, 2023, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WhiteShark »

Acrux wrote: July 17th, 2023, 20:52
@WhiteShark do you see a difference between a DM fudging a roll versus lowering (or raising) the HP of an enemy during a fight?

As one example - what if a fight has been going for a while and an enemy has 2 HP left after being attacked. Is it cheating/lying for the DM to just declare that enemy dead (i.e. the player effectively does 2 more damage than was rolled)?
Changing stats on the fly at the table is fudging unless you made a literal mistake when creating the NPCs, so your example would be fudging but fixing an improperly calculated derived attribute would not. However, see below.
Acrux wrote: July 17th, 2023, 20:52
Also, what about a DM hand-waving the end of a fight if the players have basically defeated all of the enemies except for a couple of stragglers?
Situations like this and the above are where a morale system shines. Rarely should the party be in this sort of cleanup situation because any non-mindless enemy should have likely already broken and fled or surrendered. In the exceptional cases where the enemy fights to the last man, I could accept a hand-waving of the end of the fight, or even the whole fight, if the party devised some tactic to eliminate the enemy with zero risk to themselves.
Acrux wrote: July 17th, 2023, 20:52
What about giving a player "inspiration" or "hero points" to re-roll?
Sure, as long as there's some sort of system to it that is known to the players. Better still if there's an in-fiction explanation for it. I think something like this is a fine solution for GMs who want to prevent what they see as untimely deaths without outright fudging.
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Post by Atlantico »

WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 15:19
P is Point and R is Response.

P: As the GM, I should fudge rolls.
R: No. Fudging rolls is lying and antithetical to the nature of RPGs.

P: Fudging rolls is like bluffing in poker, not lying.
R: Laughably untrue. In poker your bluff can be called and you can safely show it afterwards. In tabletop, on the other hand, players aren't allowed to call the GM's bluff, and as a GM you can never admit to your players that you fudge at all, let alone which rolls in particular, for if you do, you lose their trust forever, just as if you had lied to them... because you did.

P: Fudging rolls makes the game more dramatic.
R: False. Drama comes from genuine risk. If the GM dictates the outcomes, there is no risk.

P: Fudging rolls makes the game more entertaining for the players.
R: False. Player agency and a consistent world are the central draws of tabletop RPGs. If the GM arbitrarily decides outcomes, players are robbed of agency and the world loses consistency.

P: Fudging to save a PC results in more fun than letting the dice kill him.
R: It only seems that way in the moment. In the long term, losing a character to the dice is more entertaining than ceasless 'close calls' and trite 'dramatically appropriate' deaths; furthermore, it teaches players the value of caution and planning ahead.

P: My player won't have anything to do for the rest of the session, or even the adventure, if I don't fudge to save his PC.
R: Every player should have at least one backup PC ready to introduce at the earliest opportunity and the party should have followers/hirelings for the player to manage. It is rarely diffuclt for the GM to find a reason for a new PC to arrive.

P: My player will be sad if I don't fudge to save his PC.
R: Get a different player or play a game where the stakes aren't life and death.

P: It sucks when a random crit kills a PC at the beginning of a battle, so I should fudge to prevent that.
R: Instead, play a game with player-facing mechanics to prevent untimely deaths (bennies in Savage Worlds, Luck in GURPS, etc.), or play a game with weaker crits, or play a game where death isn't on the table. There are many options that don't reuiqre lying and arbitrarily overriding the rules.

P: Fudging rolls makes the game more entertaining for the GM.
R: False. Truly unexpected outcomes are more entertaining than making the players act out your script.

P: Every GM fudges rolls.
R: Patently false. You can find people all over the internet talking about how they roll openly and always have.

P: Gygax/AD&D said fudging is the GM's perogative:
► Show Spoiler
R: Gygax is wrong. The GM should be impartial at the table. If, as in this example, your prep would be ruined by the party missing a clue, then you should have prepped differently or not hidden the clue.

P: The players won't notice.
R: They will, and once they notice, their trust in you will be gone forever. After every close call they will always have that doubt lurking in the back of their minds: "Did we really succeed or was it just GM fiat?"

P: No, really, I'm a good liar. My players will never notice.
R: I don't believe you. There are always tells. Even supposing you were right, it would at best mean your players are brain dead.

P: Building the setting and NPCs is just as arbitrary as fudging rolls.
R: As creator of the world the GM is necessarily arbitrary away from the table, but at game time he is a referee, with all the impartiality that implies. Moreover, arbitrary though they must be, the setting and NPCs are mere starting points, not outcomes. There are often ways for smart players to overcome or avoid even overwhelming obstacles, but there is no recourse for players when the GM begins dictating rolls.

P: The GM must fudge to keep the game on course.
R: There's no such thing as 'on course' because tabletop RPGs aren't novels or plays. If you, as the GM, have an unalterable 'course' of events planned out in advance, you should be writing a book instead.

P: It's ok to fudge if I do it rarely.
R: If you fudge any roll they all become fudged, in a sense, because you accept the idea that only outcomes of which you approve will be allowed to stand.

P: There's no right or wrong way to run a game, so don't tell me not to fudge.
R: If your players like knowingly LARPing your novel, more power to you. It's still lying if you pretend that's not what you're doing, though.

I won't respond to any post raising points already addressed here.
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Post by WhiteShark »

MadPreacher wrote: July 17th, 2023, 20:59
My players aren't afraid of dying and we're playing AD&D 2E properly. I don't go out of my way to kill characters and I expect them to think about any situation they find themselves in. You can read the campaign log to see that they have a selection of three general choices that they use. They are: parlay, combat, or run away. They can come up with a fourth option like calling Daddy Malignost the greater god.

The use of fudging depends upon two major factors.

1: The character is the main protagonist for a special character arc.
2: The area of where the character dies.

In the first case, if the main protagonist dies before the final resolution of the game there is no further story to do for that character. The story has zero impact for the rest of the group. The party can get revenge and finish up the story if they so choose.

In the second case, if a character dies in the middle of an area that is far from civilization you will have a player sitting out of the game for the next few sessions. In my case, that's 2 weeks for every session. That's 2 sessions a month usually. That's not right to the player to force them onto the sidelines.

There is no way to overcome the first one. Main character dies and the story ends for him. Player creates a new character at the same power level as before the gets introduced as normal.

The way to overcome the second case is by having a pool of characters for every player. One of them is the main and the rest function as hirelings/henchmen that are all related to the main. If the main dies then a henchman is the new main character. It works great for my current campaign.
Great, then it sounds like you don't fudge when PC lives are at stake. Glad to see we are in agreement regarding backup characters and followers/hirelings as well. When I mentioned games where character death was not an option, the point was that if someone and his group were reluctant to kill characters, then that should be reflected in the rules of the system they use, not subtly enforced through fudging. I, personally, do not have a problem with character death.
MadPreacher

Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:12
Changing stats on the fly at the table is fudging unless you made a literal mistake when creating the NPCs, so your example would be fudging but fixing an improperly calculated derived attribute would not.
So AD&D did it wrong huh?

AD&D 2E DMG page 141

The Encounter is Too Difficult

The DM has accidentally pitted his player characters against a group of creatures too powerful for them, so much so that the player characters are doomed. To fix things, the DM can have the monsters flee in inexplicable panic; secretly lower their hit points; allow the player characters to hit or inflict more damage than they really should; have the monsters miss on attacks when they actually hit; have the creatures make grievous mistakes in strategy (like ignoring the thief moving in to strike from behind.)

Who knew that the creators of RPGs were so wrong about the rules and how to run the game properly. /s
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 18th, 2023, 00:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:19
Great, then it sounds like you don't fudge when PC lives are at stake. Glad to see we are in agreement regarding backup characters and followers/hirelings as well. When I mentioned games where character death was not an option, the point was that if someone and his group were reluctant to kill characters, then that should be reflected in the rules of the system they use, not subtly enforced through fudging. I, personally, do not have a problem with character death.
I do fudge when it's appropriate. I just outlined when I do and that's usually when it's the main protagonist.
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Post by The_Mask »

The DM should fudge when his players drop below 130 IQ, and keep things straight when his players are above 130 IQ.
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Post by MadPreacher »

The_Mask wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:26
The DM should fudge when his players drop below 130 IQ, and keep things straight when his players are above 130 IQ.
Oh so you're giving me permission to fudge the rolls when it comes to you playing huh? You do say that you're retarded an awful lot.

:lol:
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Post by The_Mask »

MadPreacher wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:28
The_Mask wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:26
The DM should fudge when his players drop below 130 IQ, and keep things straight when his players are above 130 IQ.
Oh so you're giving me permission to fudge the rolls when it comes to you playing huh? You do say that you're retarded an awful lot.

:lol:
I tested when I was 19, and I scored 129, while not trying too hard. So I know for sure I can get over 130 if I try.

Nice try. :lol: :mrgreen:
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Post by The_Mask »

Also... I say that because I've never played 2nd edition with people before. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by WhiteShark »

MadPreacher wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:20
I do fudge when it's appropriate. I just outlined when I do and that's usually when it's the main protagonist.
Ah, since you talked about 'overcoming' those in the second part of the post, I thought you were saying that you do not in fact fudge in those cases. Interesting to see that the current 'protagonist' is invincible in your games; I'm surprised you would publicly admit that on a forum your own current players browse.
MadPreacher wrote: July 17th, 2023, 21:19
So AD&D did it wrong huh?
Yes. It's not perfect. The idea that you need to balance encounters against your party is built on several assumptions: that the encounter cannot be avoided; that the encounter can only be resolved by fighting; that it is unacceptable for the party to be defeated; that combat is a sport to be played between evenly matched teams rather than a risky solution to a problem. If players are aware that some encounters are 'unbalanced', they'll be more interested in trying other options before resorting to violence.
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Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 00:53
Ah, since you talked about 'overcoming' those in the second part of the post, I thought you were saying that you do not in fact fudge in those cases. Interesting to see that the current 'protagonist' is invincible in your games; I'm surprised you would publicly admit that on a forum your own current players browse.
They aren't invincible. A good GM brings your players to the brink and hold them there. It's called suspense and something that every great GM should know how to do.

Yes, it's called 40 years of being a GM. You learn quite a bit on how to run games like how to use fudges and not let your players know that you did. For example, in AD&D your players don't need to know the AC of the monster they're facing. They roll and tell you the result. You have to determine if they hit or not. They also don't need to know any of the other statistics of the monsters either.

My players can tell you that I don't hide my rolls. In fact, the area where I sit in TTS is completely open for inspection, including the monsters. I trust my players to not look at the monster stats. If you'd like to verify this then you are welcome to watch a stream of us playing on Saturday.
WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 00:53
Yes. It's not perfect. The idea that you need to balance encounters against your party is built on several assumptions: that the encounter cannot be avoided; that the encounter can only be resolved by fighting; that it is unacceptable for the party to be defeated; that combat is a sport to be played between evenly matched teams rather than a risky solution to a problem. If players are aware that some encounters are 'unbalanced', they'll be more interested in trying other options before resorting to violence.
My encounters are anything but balanced. My players can tell you that. I threw at them 10 Hit Die Evil Treants when they were level 1. I expected them to overcome the encounter with their brains and they did. I give them hints in the description that lets them know if the encounter they face is one they have a chance of winning. Within the first session of the game, a player lost their character due to being turned into a gold dragon because he failed his Save vs. Polymorph due to him failing a Dexterity check and fell into a corrupted arcane pool of magic. He did survive the System Shock roll for the actual transformation. The entire group of 24 characters came across a bunch of giant spiders and the clues were all the corpses that they had cocooned or were drained. The corpses were described from anything that was 1 HD up to 6 HD. I believe there were 7 giant spiders.

I already told you that I present my players with 3 basic ways of overcoming an encounter. They are Fight, Flee, or Parlay. The fourth option is them getting creative. My campaign logs are posted for you to see the character levels and the Hit Dice of the monsters they've faced. In AD&D, you are expected to overcome the encounter. Overcoming can be as simple as having the party stance set to Friendly and let the Encounter Reaction table handle the baseline for said encounter. That's the Parlay option. The Fight option is where you actually have combat. The Flee option is where you just run away.

In fact, why not ask @The_Mask, @Kalarion, and @JarlFrank about how I GM.
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 18th, 2023, 03:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WhiteShark »

MadPreacher wrote: July 18th, 2023, 01:39
They aren't invincible. A good GM brings your players to the brink and hold them there. It's called suspense and something that every great GM should know how to do.
The brink... of your whim, because you are deciding whether to let them live or die based on drama and convenience rather than the rules. I guess you can call wondering whether your PC is important enough to the current 'story' for the GM to secretly preserve him a form of 'suspense', although not the kind I would ever want to have while playing an RPG.

You said they're not invincible, so what's the cutoff? At what point do you let the 'protagonist' die when the dice say he should? Is it up to your sense of plausibility? Why even bother with rules at that point?
MadPreacher wrote: July 18th, 2023, 01:39
My encounters are anything but balanced. My players can tell you that. I threw at them 12 Hit Die Evil Treants when they were level 1. I expected them to overcome the encounter with their brains and they did. I give them hints in the description that lets them know if the encounter they face is one they have a chance of winning. Within the first session of the game, a player lost their character due to being turned into a gold dragon because he failed his Save vs. Polymorph because he failed a Dexterity check and fell into a corrupted arcane pool of magic. He did survive the System Shock roll. The entire group of 24 characters came across a bunch of giant spiders and the clues were all the corpses that they had cocooned or were drained. The corpses were described from anything that was 1 HD up to 6 HD. I believe there were 7 giant spiders.
Yes, yes, very scary, except not because now we know that if it strikes your fancy, none of that will mean anything. If the GM fudges, it doesn't matter whether the encounter is 7 giant spiders or 200 pit fiends: it will be exactly as deadly, or not, as he pleases.
MadPreacher wrote: July 18th, 2023, 01:39
In fact, why not ask @The_Mask, @Kalarion, and @JarlFrank about how I GM.
Ok, sure, why not. @The_Mask, @Kalarion, @JarlFrank: are you ok with your GM secretly manipulating the stats of your enemies on a whim?
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Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:12
The brink... of your whim, because you are deciding whether to let them live or die based on drama and convenience rather than the rules. I guess you can call wondering whether your PC is important enough to the current 'story' for the GM to secretly preserve him a form of 'suspense', although not the kind I would ever want to have while playing an RPG.
No, the brink as in they're down to 1 hit point (AD&D 2E has rules for going to -10 before death) or 1 sanity point and the feeling of dread overcomes the player. All within the rules. Do you want to know where I learned how to use drama and fear?

It was Call of Cthulhu 1st Edition in the 1990s. The goal of the game is to scare your players and slowly have them experience the insanity that their character does.

Which makes for a better story to tell; Bob is fighting some elves and he lucks out with a critical failure that results in him dying a horrible death in his quest to help free some princess right after he leaves the tavern at the beginning or Bob has a critical failure that causes him to go down to 1 hit point then surviving the encounter to continue on with the grand quest right after he leaves the tavern at the beginning?

It's the latter. Notice that this is just at the end of 1 encounter. He has many more to go. What if I roll a random encounter and he's still got 1 hit point left? His options are to fight, parlay, or flee. Fighting is idiotic on the part of the player, so that leaves two options: parlay or flee.

If he's dead then the adventure is over and the game breaks up. Good luck in forming a new group in the next year.
WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:12
You said they're not invincible, so what's the cutoff? At what point do you let the 'protagonist' die when the dice say he should? Is it up to your sense of plausibility? Why even bother with rules at that point?
It depends upon numerous factors. For one it's the story and if they're integral to the plot. It won't do you much good to invest the other players into a story that isn't centered on them, so if the main character dies the story ends. That player then has to sit out for a number of sessions until you can arrange to bring in his new character that doesn't break the suspension of disbelief. If you describe the area where the party is at as being this desolate wilderness with nobody around and you have a brand new character show up out of the blue that breaks that immersion for the rest of the group.

The best time to let a character die is at the apex of the story. However, if they do die before then and they have a pool of characters then your job as a GM is to make that death as memorable as you can.

You seem to ignore the rules that say that you can fudge the dice. Why are you ignoring the rules for your fiat?
WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:12
Yes, yes, very scary, except not because now we know that if it strikes your fancy, none of that will mean anything. If the GM fudges, it doesn't matter whether the encounter is 7 giant spiders or 200 pit fiends: it will be exactly as deadly, or not, as he pleases.
I already proven to you that I let characters die due to bad rolls. In fact, my entire campaign log is there for you to read. Why don't you actually deal with the facts of how I run instead of making up scenarios to fit your fantasies on how I run. Oh right, it's easier to build strawmen and argue against the rules when you are fiat going against them.

You can't say that I'm ignoring the rules when said rules state that I should fudge the rolls to keep the party alive for my mistakes in planning or for the story. I've run well over 50 different game systems. They've all pretty much said the same thing when it comes to this subject. Are you seriously trying to tell me that they were all wrong and you are right?

The only one arguing for the ignoring of the rules is you. I posted up the AD&D 2E rules. You posted up the AD&D 1E rules from the creator of RPGs himself that said you should fudge the dice. I believe your hubris has gotten the better of you.

Go ahead and create more strawmen about how I run my game. I invited you to see it firsthand, but you refused. I wonder why that is.
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 18th, 2023, 02:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by The_Mask »

WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:12
Ok, sure, why not. @The_Mask, @Kalarion, @JarlFrank: are you ok with your GM secretly manipulating the stats of your enemies on a whim?
This boils down to the marriage between gameplay and mechanics. If you *want* to tell a story then you're going to have to mechanically manipulate stats.

Example: if the player group encounters a number of spiders, but one of them is special because is send by the goddess of spiders as an omen to one of the players, and the DM/AM wants to pump its CON to some 30 CON, then they should be allowed to do so.

This is also the moment where the players would also pick up on things. The PC characters would also pick up on things. And so a narrative will cohead.

The issue comes when the players don't get it. When the players are malicious. Or when the players are both silly and malicious. When that happens, I'm fully on-board with messing with the stats, until either that's be cured out of people's system, or until a PC dies.
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Post by WhiteShark »

MadPreacher wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:31
Which makes for a better story to tell:
...
For one it's the story and if they're integral to the plot. It won't do you much good to invest the other players into a story that isn't centered on them, so if the main character dies the story ends.
...
The best time to let a character die is at the apex of the story.
...
You can't say that I'm ignoring the rules when said rules state that I should fudge the rolls to keep the party alive for my mistakes in planning or for the story.
Thank you for clearly demonstrating the irreconcilable chasm between the nature of RPGs and the concept of a 'story'. Just this once, since I'm feeling generous, I'll refer you to the OP instead of ignoring these points:
WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 15:19
P: The GM must fudge to keep the game on course.
R: There's no such thing as 'on course' because tabletop RPGs aren't novels or plays. If you, as the GM, have an unalterable 'course' of events planned out in advance, you should be writing a book instead.
MadPreacher wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:31
The only one arguing for the ignoring of the rules is you. I posted up the AD&D 2E rules. You posted up the AD&D 1E rules from the creator of RPGs himself that said you should fudge the dice.
According to the quote I posted, the GM has the "right to overrule the dice at any time if there is a particular course of events that [he] would like to have occur." It doesn't mean much to say that you follow the rules if the central rule you follow is that you can break the rules whenever you feel like it. Once again, I'll refer you to the OP:
WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 15:19
P: Gygax/AD&D said fudging is the GM's perogative:
R: Gygax is wrong. The GM should be impartial at the table. If, as in this example, your prep would be ruined by the party missing a clue, then you should have prepped differently or not hidden the clue.
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Post by WhiteShark »

The_Mask wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:37
Example: if the player group encounters a number of spiders, but one of them is special because is send by the goddess of spiders as an omen to one of the players, and the DM/AM wants to pump its CON to some 30 CON, then they should be allowed to do so.

This is also the moment where the players would also pick up on things. The PC characters would also pick up on things. And so a narrative will cohead.
That's not what's being discussed.
WhiteShark wrote: July 17th, 2023, 15:19
P: Building the setting and NPCs is just as arbitrary as fudging rolls.
R: As creator of the world the GM is necessarily arbitrary away from the table, but at game time he is a referee, with all the impartiality that implies. Moreover, arbitrary though they must be, the setting and NPCs are mere starting points, not outcomes. There are often ways for smart players to overcome or avoid even overwhelming obstacles, but there is no recourse for players when the GM begins dictating rolls.
A spider designed to have 30 CON is perfectly fine. The GM deciding mid-fight that it would be a lot more dramatic if this regular spider had 30 CON is not.

To be perfectly clear, your GM has admitted to nerfing monsters in the middle of combat to preserve the life of whicher PC is considered the 'protagonist' at the moment.
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Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:58
Thank you for clearly demonstrating the irreconcilable chasm between the nature of RPGs and the concept of a 'story'. Just this once, since I'm feeling generous, I'll refer you to the OP instead of ignoring these points:
Actually, my argument is far more nuanced than that. I've already told you to read my campaign logs for both my WEG Star Wars game and my Myths game. What's the matter are you too lazy to actually form a coherent argument against how I run using the rules of the respective systems? I find it hilarious that someone that is younger than me is lecturing me on how to run a game since I've been doing it longer than you've most likely been alive.

In my Myths game, it's a hex crawl with no real story other than what is created during play. All of it is organic using ALL of the rules. I'm running the game as if it's 1979. If you have a problem with that then I don't give a shit.
WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:58
According to the quote I posted, the GM has the "right to overrule the dice at any time if there is a particular course of events that [he] would like to have occur." It doesn't mean much to say that you follow the rules if the central rule you follow is that you can break the rules whenever you feel like it. Once again, I'll refer you to the OP:
So you're a moron then right?

The rules say you can fudge. How is that breaking the rules? It appears that you're delusional and confused since those are rules you and I both quoted. Thus, your DM fiat is going against the rules. You are the one breaking the rules.
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 18th, 2023, 03:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MadPreacher »

WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 03:00
To be perfectly clear, your GM has admitted to nerfing monsters in the middle of combat to preserve the life of whicher PC is considered the 'protagonist' at the moment.
I actually didn't nerf any monsters. It's right there in my log. Do you want to know how the party overcame 10 HD evil treants? They set themselves to friendly. Two druids walked up to the evil treants in a friendly stance with the rest of the group hanging back at the edge of the clearing in case things went wrong. I rolled on the Encounter Reaction table that gave the result of friendly. The evil treants talked to the players and information was shared. The druids left the treants behind and they went back to their city. They overcame the encounter and got full experience for it. It's right there in the first post of my campaign log.

If you're going to accuse me of something then you better at least know what the fuck you're talking about.
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 18th, 2023, 09:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by MadPreacher »

Oh I was wrong. It was the fourth post in my thread. This is the encounter I referenced.

Encounter Six

Day 12 Week 2 Year 0

The party is making their way back to the valley, following the path through the forest. As they move forward, they stumble upon a clearing with a large pool of viscous reddish-black liquid in the center. The clearing is surrounded by twisted and gnarled trees, their branches elongated and twisted, ending in sharp, claw-like fingers. The roots of the trees writhe and writhe in the ground, as if they are alive. The clearing is dark, but it has an eerie and unsettling glow on the twisted trees, making it hard to see clearly. The smell is overwhelming, a mixture of rot and decay that makes the party's eyes water and their stomachs churn. Surrounding the pool, the party notices the skeletal remains of large forest animals, including giant spiders, wild cattle, and other creatures that are unlike anything they've ever seen before. The bones are scattered around the clearing, and some of them are still partially covered in flesh and fur. The sight is gruesome, and the party can sense that something terrible has happened here.

As the party approaches the clearing, they can hear the sound of dripping water coming from the pool, creating an eerie and unsettling atmosphere. The sound of raindrops hitting the leaves and branches of the twisted trees creates a rhythmical, almost hypnotic background noise that makes it hard to focus. The wind howls through the clearing, whistling through the twisted branches of the corrupted trees, creating an eerie and ominous sound. The sound of the roots of the corrupted trees moving and shifting under the ground, adding to the unsettling atmosphere of the clearing.

In the center of the clearing, the party sees four twisted, corrupted trees that appear to be living, standing guard around the pool. Their bark is blackened and cracked, revealing twisted, gnarled wood beneath. Their eyes glow with an eerie, unearthly light. Their branches are elongated and twisted, ending in sharp, claw-like fingers. They have the appearance of snarling faces, revealing razor-sharp teeth. They are fiercely protective of the forest and will do whatever it takes to defend it.

The druids Ilgi and Bilit decide to have a conversation with the evil treants. The conversation was pleasant and the two druids were allowed to leave. The rest of the party stayed back to avoid any fights.

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Jungle, tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Grove
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18/3-18 or 4-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (12-15')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 12,000

For the record, if the party decided to attack they would have died and I was prepared to let them.
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Post by Kalarion »

WhiteShark wrote: July 18th, 2023, 02:12
Ok, sure, why not. @The_Mask, @Kalarion, @JarlFrank: are you ok with your GM secretly manipulating the stats of your enemies on a whim?
:mad: That wasn't the question you were encouraged to ask. But because its answer is consequential to what JD actually said you should ask, I'll answer you first: no, but that's silly. No one is ok with secretly manipulative behavior, even if it could be justified. A better question would be: "are you ok with your GM manipulating the state of play?" My answer to that much more sensible question: depends on the GM.
MadPreacher wrote: July 18th, 2023, 01:39
In fact, why not ask @The_Mask, @Kalarion, and @JarlFrank about how I GM.
I think you GM very well.

PS: JD has never, to my knowledge, "secretly manipulated" play. He has manipulated play, but always openly. I know you didn't specifically accuse him of doing it, but that's the tone set by your question.

The question, as Whiteshark has already stated, is one of trust. Do I trust the GM to exercise his sovereign powers properly? The trust is fundamental, not rules adherence as such. I concede that, especially in the case of playing under a new/unknown GM, trust is most easily established and increased through fair and consistent play. I further concede that the easiest (and usually the best) way to have fair and consistent play is through adherence to whatever ruleset you happen to be playing under. I do not concede that this means the rules should never be broken/fudged. Unbreakable rules are reserved for perfection, and there's only one source of that.

I will say that my sentiment on the matter is strongly in agreement with Whiteshark. The rules should be regarded almost as sacred. I'm built that way, and I happen to believe that in this specific matter I am fortunately very closely in alignment with The Way Things Should Be (TM). But again, unbreakable rules are the realm of perfection. Exceptions exist for a reason.

Finally, fudging is not automatically equal to lying. The one is often used in service to the other, but they're not the same.

PPS: @rusty_shackleford please bring the :notsureifserious: emoji over, it's almost as useful as :smug:
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Kalarion wrote: July 18th, 2023, 05:08
The rules should be regarded almost as sacred.
AD&D rules flat out tell the DM to fudge the rolls if warranted btw.
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