Speculative R&D: Game Controllers

[aweigh]

@aweigh any recommendations for a Controller > PC that has wide compatibility with all games (Emulators / PC Games / Etc)

I've been getting by with an old PS3 controller for years but It requires a lot of button-binding-magic for certain console emulators.

There's a couple of good options I'd recommend here, but mainly comes down to these two:

the 8bitdo Ultimate / 8bitdo Pro 2:
(BTW, ignore the "Switch controller" thing, it's just marketing. I mean, they do work on Switch but they also work on PC and mobile, they just market it "as a Switch" controller, but don't let that confuse you, I don't even own a Switch, I use everything on PC)




and my other recommendation would be the flydigi Vader 3 Pro:


I think you'll be satisfied with any of these controllers, but main points are:

- 8bitdo options have a soft, SNES-like d-pad that is actually the BEST d-pad on the market for emulating older games. The 8bitdo d-pad is so good it's also what I personally use now to play fighting games (my current fighting game pad is the 8bitdo ultimate). Yeah, it's a "soft" d-pad, it's not clicky, I know some people want the tacticle feedback but no, the 8bitdo d-pad is soft... however it is EXTREMELY accurate. This thing was engineered specifically for retro gaming, and they carry over the same d-pad design on every new iteration of their controllers.

Other than that the 8bitdo options also have nice, familiar/conventional rubber-membrane face buttons that are good, snappy and responsive. The rubber-membrane buttons on the 8bitdo options are also better for "mashing" the buttons as well. Just solid options overall.

- Flydigi Vader 3 Pro also has an excellent d-pad however it's the complete opposite; it's an over-engineered 'floating wheel' mechanical-switch d-pad, extremely clicky, and it feels NOTHING like the 8bitdo dpad. However! It is *also* a very good d-pad! It's super clicky, super tacticle, very responsive and accurate, however it will cause your thumb to get tired over longer sessions. This is when you realize that a "soft" d-pad is actually good for retro gaming, less thumb fatigue.

However the V3P is in my opinion, a really good controller. More expensive than the 8bitdo options but it has better feeling buttons and sticks. (specifically better-feeling analog sticks too, though this is not to say the 8bitdo sticks are bad). V3P face buttons are mechanical switch so they are clicky and require slightly higher actuation force than the rubber-membrane buttons on the 8bitdo controllers, this means that you can't mash them as fast as you can mash the 8bitdo buttons; however it's not like it's a huge difference, and I personally prefer the clicky responsiveness of the mechanical-switch button (as long as they're done right, i've used shitty mechanicals before and they suck). A lot of 2d purists hate mechanical buttons and will only use rubber-membrane, and hey that's fine too, personal preference. Just something to consider. Like I said, I like the clicky Vader 3 Pro buttons. I think they're quite good, feel real nice to press.

Yeah, like I said i think you'll be satisfied with either brand. If your main focus will be using t he d-pad a lot then go with 8bitdo, if you want to use the controller for equal amounts of 2d and 3d gaming then get the flydigi. Both are good either way.

[Oyster Sauce]

[Shillitron]

Am I retarded or is this one just a giant block? Isn't it hard to hold? Or is the controller stand just hiding the gap between the grips?

OH is this like an Arcade-Style controller pad?

[aweigh]

Am I retarded or is this one just a giant block? Isn't it hard to hold? Or is the controller stand just hiding the gap between the grips?

OH is this like an Arcade-Style controller pad?

lol the picture is showing the controller inside the charging dock.

[rusty_shackleford]

GameSir Nova Lite

I bought this
I barely play games that are better with controllers so I'm not spending a fortune on it

[aweigh]

GameSir Nova Lite

I bought this
I barely play games that are better with controllers so I'm not spending a fortune on it

yeah i'm not saying this thing is amazing or anything but for $25 dollars it's very good. punches above its weight class. easily the best of the "ultra low-budget" controllers by a VERY large margin.

[J1M]

@aweigh any recommendations for a Controller > PC that has wide compatibility with all games (Emulators / PC Games / Etc)

I've been getting by with an old PS3 controller for years but It requires a lot of button-binding-magic for certain console emulators.

Official Xbox or PowerA Nintendo Switch Gamecube-style controller if "emulators" is code for "Nintendo".

[Shillitron]

@aweigh any recommendations for a Controller > PC that has wide compatibility with all games (Emulators / PC Games / Etc)

I've been getting by with an old PS3 controller for years but It requires a lot of button-binding-magic for certain console emulators.

Official Xbox or PowerA Nintendo Switch Gamecube-style controller if "emulators" is code for "Nintendo".

Emulators is code for Switch / PS1 / PS2 / PS3, SNES, these days.

[J1M]

Just ordered an Xbox Elite v2 Pro Extreme Whatever with the back paddles. No idea what I will use it for.

[rusty_shackleford]

GameSir Nova Lite

I bought this
I barely play games that are better with controllers so I'm not spending a fortune on it

yeah i'm not saying this thing is amazing or anything but for $25 dollars it's very good. punches above its weight class. easily the best of the "ultra low-budget" controllers by a VERY large margin.

Supposed to get here on Tuesday so I'll find a game that works well with controllers, maybe Everspace 2, and report my feedback.

[J1M]

@aweigh any recommendations for a Controller > PC that has wide compatibility with all games (Emulators / PC Games / Etc)

I've been getting by with an old PS3 controller for years but It requires a lot of button-binding-magic for certain console emulators.

Official Xbox or PowerA Nintendo Switch Gamecube-style controller if "emulators" is code for "Nintendo".

Emulators is code for Switch / PS1 / PS2 / PS3, SNES, these days.

I wasn't kink-shaming. But do you really think he's having trouble mapping PS3 buttons to a PS3 controller?

[BobT]

I know he's not going to see this, but anyone else know if those additional sticks / caps can be used with that luxury Apex 4? <- Looks like they just pop off, so should be compatible?

Also do you need "big hands" for that one? I've held some controlers that hurt a bit as it felt like everything was too far away. Inversely the fucking steam controller has the B button SO close to the track pad that you end up touching the track pad and looking at the floor accidentally while pressing it. I had to mess around setting up a dead zone.

I don't use controlers much but might go through my Saturn games again next and it does work better for emulated stuff, so I'm thinking of upgrading as the cheap, hard/brittle plastic on the steam controler does make my hands sore after a while.

Also do these controllers easily map to windows keys for emulator compatibility? - Vid says they can be remapped.

Regarding this, I'm looking at that Apex controller, it sounds nice (and I don't need budget).
I agree with @aweigh's idea of using a low mushroom tip (lol) on the left with a mid-concave at the right. Left is usually movement so it sounds sensible that you'd want to be pushing the EDGES of the stick more (for hard or soft pushes), and right is for camera so you need more accurate control.

Regarding this controller, would it map the buttons well to Snes & Saturn emulators? Those are the ones I usually use (since my actual consoles & games for those got stolen years ago )

Would like an answer to the above as well about the hand-sizes. Some hurt if have to "stretch" too much, whereas others are too compact and end up with you fat-fingering the wrong button (steam's!)


Mouse & keyboard is 100% the superior control style, however with console emulators and SOME games, controller is absolutely more comfortable / natural.
EDIT: If one of the few not on his ignore list (lol) could quote this to him, that would be nice, thanks.

[Shillitron]

I wasn't kink-shaming. But do you really think he's having trouble mapping PS3 buttons to a PS3 controller?

> trouble mapping PS3 buttons to a PS3 controller
> Switch / PS1 / PS2 / PS3 / SNES / PC

The worst offenders are Switch and PC games. Usually it's fine it depends how old the game is. The driver / software I'm using for PS3 controller maps to 5 different styles and the most consistent one is the Xcode / Xbone controller one - so essentially windows is seeing the controller map as a xbox controller.. but then in game all the button prompts are mapped to Xbox - whereas my controller is PS3.

It's not the end of the world - I was just asking for aweigh's opinion if I wanted to drop a few bucks on something new.
Additionally it's pretty old it's my original PS3 controller I got with the console like 10+ (15+? 20+?) years ago. The analog sticks are starting to 'drift' a bit at resting position. So I need a new controller anyways.

[rusty_shackleford]

nearly all PC games assume you are using an xbawks controller in my experience

[Xenich]

@aweigh any recommendations for a Controller > PC that has wide compatibility with all games (Emulators / PC Games / Etc)

I've been getting by with an old PS3 controller for years but It requires a lot of button-binding-magic for certain console emulators.

I have the X-box One controller, with the wireless dongle. Haven't ran into a game where it didn't work, but then... as I said... I don't use it a whole lot.

[Xenich]

nearly all PC games assume you are using an xbawks controller in my experience

Yeah, PS types tend to have issues at times (have some generics which is why I eventually picked up an xbox one for ease of use).

[aweigh]

for using playstation controllers on PC i recommend the program "DS4Windows". it's also very good for using Nintendo Switch controllers on PC as well.

Let's clarify something:

XINPUT (DirectX Input) = "native" Windows controller API, all controllers that are Xbox or Xbox-platform are XINPUT. Most 3rd-party controllers that work on PC will run under XINPUT mode when doing so.

DINPUT = this is what was used before XINPUT standard was implemented, and yes it is superior to XINPUT, another thing to blame Microsoft for ruining. All old PC controllers (probably) run on DINPUT.

Interestingly, Switch and Playstation controllers use DINPUT still, and they register as DINPUT when connected to a Windows PC.

This brings me to my point about DS4Windows: this program makes Windows think that your Playstation or Nintendo Switch controller is running as XINPUT, and it will create a virtual controller that registers as a generic Xbox 360 controller for translating the API calls to and fro (acts as a middle-man). No, this doesn't add any latency or anything. I've checked.

This is how I use my DualSense/Dualsense Edge controllers on PC, I run DS4Windows. It's very lightweight, no need to worry about it sucking up resources. On the plus side besides allowing the controller translation it also has a ton of options for configuring how the controller works, including basic remapping as well, though I believe the remapping stuff is only available for Playstation controllers since this was originally an app designed for PS controllers. In order to enable Nintendo Switch compatibility you have to tick the box in the settings:


You'll also notice that it has an option for DualShock3 controllers, i.e. PS3 controllers. If you run your PS3 controller through DS4Windows I believe you can adjust the size of the deadzones for the analog stick, increasing them slightly in order to band-aid your stick drift. The inner deadzone is a circle which radiates outwards from the center-point of the stick output, so increasing the deadzone to 5% or 10% means that any movement within that % circle will be "dead", not register, which is why that's the 'dead zone'. This is useful because "drifting" occurs when the stick's center point begins to 'drift' outside of the center, registering movement output without the stick being physically touched. If the stick is drifting 3% off-center, then a 4% deadzone should mean that it will cancel-out the drift.

This is just a band-aid however, not a fix. The drift will worsen over time and even if it didn't you do not want to use a stick with an off-center output; it throws off movement. Think of stick movement as 0 - 100% degrees per axis, if the center point is drifting 5% north-of-center, then that means you no longer have 100% range, you now have only 95% range on the Y axis. This makes aiming and control with the thumbstick feel WEIRD and just not fun the worse it is.

Also, the larger the deadzone (basically anything above 5%) the less "smooth" an analog stick will feel because it feels like you move the stick but "nothing happens" (quite literally). It makes making small adjustments very very difficult. Some bad cheaper controllers force a large deadzone that cannot be removed which makes using the analog sticks feel awful, usually cheap 3rd party stuff, though this isn't as common nowadays as it was a decade ago. This is a large part of the reason old 3rd party controllers had such bad reputations as well, well... part of the reason. So while it's a good band-aid it doesn't really make using the controller feel good, it really is just a band-aid.

PREFERABLY you want zero deadzone, which is why you will see a lot of controllers marketed with "zero deadzone" options built into them (no need to use 3rd-party software), however using an app (like DS4Windows, or reWASD, or SteamInput) to create a basic deadzone to band-aid your stick drift is still a good option to be aware of, i mean sometimes you just have to make do with what you already have.

[aweigh]

* Note that you can also adjust a controller's deadzone using SteamInput, or other software like reWASD. It doesn't have to be DS4Windows, it's just convenient since you would use it for the PS controller anyway.

* Another note/addendum: higher-priced controllers come with manufacturer software which allows recalibration of the stick center point. Combined with the sticks themselves using Hall Effect modules it makes for (almost) complete future-proofing. For example, flydigi software allows stick recalibration on the vader 3 pro and apex controllers.

The hall effect stick module decreases the chance of center point drift to being almost negligible because the main CAUSE of center point drift is the wear and tear that damages the graphite pads which receive the X/Y axis electrical signals; on a traditional ALPS thumbstick module the graphite pads will wear out over time and with use, though mind you this is not as overblown as some would lead you to believe: a well-built controller should last you at least 5-8 years of daily use before ever exhibiting any problems.

The nintendo switch joycon drift was actually caused by a manufacturing defect where the parts were so close together that they exerted too much pressure on the mechanism causing physical damage, so it was a unique case.

The hall effect module avoids all of this by not having any moving parts when it comes to registering the X/Y signals, it's just some magnets, so since there is nothing physically making contact there is no 'wear and tear'.

EDIT: Another FUN FACT for you guys, ps2 and gamecube actually did a self-calibration of the analog stick center point during boot-up, it's why sometimes it would show a message asking you to make sure you weren't touching the sticks during boot. PS3 onwards they stopped doing this, built-in obsolescence.

[PayStation]

EDIT: If one of the few not on his ignore list (lol) could quote this to him, that would be nice, thanks.

LOL I take a look at his profile and I haven't seen a longer ignore list in my life. Why does he ignore 99% active posters in this forum when he is the one spamming low effort twitter posts?

[PayStation]

Alternatively, I also recommend the PS5 DualSense controller in the $75 dollar range. Feature-wise the Vader 3 Pro probably wins out, and it has better technology in its analog sticks (plus back buttons, which the stock DS does not have), but don't get it twisted: the DualSense is an EXCELLENT controller. Extremely well made. At this price range I feel confident recommending either of these. Or get both!

Do you guys take this guy seriously? He probably runs a controller museum, owns all the newest controllers on Amazon, but still somehow has dogshit taste when it comes to controllers.

The PS5 controller is a piece of junk.

The PS4 controller is nearly perfect. What it needs to improve is:

• - Fix the stick drift

• - Better battery life

• - Dimmer LED or remove it so it doesn't shine into your monitor

That's it. But look at how the PS5 controller is 'improved':

• - Still has stick drift

• - Worse battery life

• - Heavier. I don't mind the weight, but when kids come to my house to play video games, they prefer the lighter PS4 controller

• - Gimmicky haptic feedback (only worthwhile if you play racing games)

• - More expensive.

And somehow this guy calls the PS5 controller 'excellent'."

And I don't understand controllers with 10 million back paddles. If you need more buttons on a controller or more customization, you're better off playing the game using a mouse and keyboard.

[Segata]

I got a DualSense recently and it annoyed me to no end to discover that the triggers have a bothersome outer deadzone, meaning you'll reach the maximum input way before you reach the physical limit of the trigger, by a few millimeters. Other than that I don't have many complains about it, except that it's less comfortable than the DS4, but you get used to it. Still, it's pretty bad that you get a first party controller and it's less than perfect.

[Oyster Sauce]

And I don't understand controllers with 10 million back paddles. If you need more buttons on a controller or more customization, you're better off playing the game using a mouse and keyboard.

Alright, now roll in Dark Souls while adjusting the camera

[PayStation]

Alright, now roll in Dark Souls while adjusting the camera

Valid point.

But I don't adjust the camera and roll at the same time. And I don't use lock-on. My right thumb is on the right stick most of the time, but the moment I need to roll, I quickly tap the roll button and then return to adjusting the right stick.

The only games where I feel the need to adjust the camera and use face buttons at the same time are shooting games (adjusting crosshair, jumping, and firing simultaneously). However, I don't play those games using controllers.

[Oyster Sauce]

Alright, now roll in Dark Souls while adjusting the camera

Valid point.

But I don't adjust the camera and roll at the same time. And I don't use lock-on. My right thumb is on the right stick most of the time, but the moment I need to roll, I quickly tap the roll button and then return to adjusting the right stick.

The only games where I feel the need to adjust the camera and use face buttons at the same time are shooting games (adjusting crosshair, jumping, and firing simultaneously). However, I don't play those games using controllers.

It feels like more and more games are designed around having back buttons even though they aren't quite mainstream. For example, I think it was Red Dead Redemption 2 that allowed you to call and mount your horse while running with the left thumb stick, but only if you held the dpad on the left side of the controller down to whistle which forced you to maintain some fucked up claw grip until the horse came into range. I can't see myself every buying a controller without them again.

[aweigh]

I got a DualSense recently and it annoyed me to no end to discover that the triggers have a bothersome outer deadzone, meaning you'll reach the maximum input way before you reach the physical limit of the trigger, by a few millimeters. Other than that I don't have many complains about it, except that it's less comfortable than the DS4, but you get used to it. Still, it's pretty bad that you get a first party controller and it's less than perfect.

Can fine-tune that with DS4Windows.

(Or SteamInput, reWASD, etc).

I understand the point of your complaint, however, you should never need to adjust something with extra software. Higher outer deadzone on the trigger can affect stuff like racing, throttle, simming, etc.

I like to keep my dualsense triggers in permanent "trigger stop" mode using reWASD where it makes the adaptive trigger harden to 100% rigidness at the 50% travel mark, so when you press the dualsense trigger down it will become solid at the halfway point, simulating a hard stop. Of course you can still push down and force it through, obviously, but it works pretty damn well if you're not autistic about it. Very nice little bonus feature, nice to have.

You can also have it set to "racing" mode permanently on reWASD so that it tries to simulate a break pedal and a gas pedal, basically it just means the trigger gets slightly harder the further down you push, becomes softer when you release. It's actually quite simple and basic, but it still feels cool. Assigning the effect "universally" via reWASD is useful for when you're playing something like gran turismo 4 on a ps2 emulator, since normally you would not be able to achieve the adaptive effect otherwise. It's just a gimmick, I know, but it's fun.

Those are the only real two uses i've found for the adaptive triggers, if i'm honest. Sure it's cool and all the first time you use the force feedback on a game, how the triggers change up the effect dynamically depending on the gun you're shooting (i tried it out on RDR2 and Cyberpunk 2077), but after 15 minutes you just want to put them back to normal or leave them in trigger-stop mode permanently. The last thing I want when I'm playing a shooter is for the trigger to fight me back when I want to shoot.

[Segata]

Can fine-tune that with DS4Windows.

(Or SteamInput, reWASD, etc).

Not, it's built in the controller and you can test it with SteamInput's test utility. Apparently it doesn't affect the DS4, just the PS5 DualSense. Had I know about it before buying it, I would've opted for another controller.



Also,

>reWASD

[aweigh]

reWASD is indispensible for me, unfortunately. It is the single most important piece of software on my PC.

[PayStation]

[
It feels like more and more games are designed around having back buttons even though they aren't quite mainstream. For example, I think it was Red Dead Redemption 2 that allowed you to call and mount your horse while running with the left thumb stick, but only if you held the dpad on the left side of the controller down to whistle which forced you to maintain some fucked up claw grip until the horse came into range. I can't see myself every buying a controller without them again.

I've had the game lying around for a year but only put 30 minutes into it. What you said feels like a pain because that action is frequently used, and somehow they use the most fucked up button combination for it. I think they should let players bind it to a touchpad action like swipe left/right/up/down, but developers are lazy, so they just force terrible default bindings for everyone on every platform. Yeah back paddles are nice to have in those cases. And for me if a game have bad controller bindings I use Mouse + Keyboard or drop the game.

[aweigh]

I will verify for you whether DS4Windows can affect the DualSense's deadzone or not and report back.

[aweigh]

Yeah that final 5-8% deadzone is firmware-forced, neither ds4windows nor rewasd can remove it, even forcing a 100% anti-deadzone (i.e. reverse of a deadzone, have input register as 100% on the first 1% of travel) does anything to it.

That post was talking about "half of the trigger" and that's plainly wrong/huge exaggeration, but yeah the trigger output reaches 100% at around 90% of travel, thereabouts. Give or take a millimeter. I'd never noticed this before but I don't really play demanding racing games much.