Do you Roguelike?

[Dead]

The only thing funny here is how moronic your post is.

[Breathe]

People interchange roguelite and roguelike these days Dead. Not much can be done about it at this point.

[rusty_shackleford]

roguelike means like Rogue.

[Dead]

Twisting definitions of words until they no longer resemble the original definitions, and demanding that others accept your absurd twisted definitions is tranny behavior.

[Nammu Archag]

roguelike means like Rogue.

so what makes a game like Rogue exactly

[Nammu Archag]

The only thing funny here is how moronic your post is.

Not sure why you are so spiteful over arbitrary semantics. Can you explain the supposedly correct definition?

[Emphyrio]

roguelike means like Rogue.

so what makes a game like Rogue exactly

slime molds

[WhiteShark]

Can you explain the supposedly correct definition?

This one is pretty solid:

==Preamble==
This definition of "Roguelike" was created at the International
Roguelike Development Conference 2008 and is the product of a
discussion between all who attended. The definition at
http://www.roguetemple.com/roguelike-definition/ was used as the
starting point for the discussions. Most factors are newly phrased,
new factors have been added, some factors have been removed.

==General Principles==

"Roguelike" refers to a genre, not merely "like-Rogue". The genre is
represented by its canon. The canon for Roguelikes is ADOM, Angband,
Crawl, Nethack, and Rogue.

This list can be used to determine how roguelike a game is. Missing
some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise,
possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

The purpose of the definition is for the roguelike community to better
understand what the community is studying. It is not to place
constraints on developers or games.

==High value factors==

====Random environment generation====

The game world is randomly generated in a way that increases
replayability. Appearance and placement of items is random.
Appearance of monsters is fixed, their placement is random.
Fixed content (plots or puzzles or vaults) removes randomness.

====Permadeath====

You are not expected to win the game with your first character. You
start over from the first level when you die. (It is possible to save
games but the savefile is deleted upon loading.) The random
environment makes this enjoyable rather than punishing.

====Turn-based====

Each command corresponds to a single action/movement. The game is not
sensitive to time, you can take your time to choose your action.

====Grid-based====

The world is represented by a uniform grid of tiles. Monsters (and
the player) take up one tile, regardless of size.

====Non-modal====

Movement, battle and other actions take place in the same mode. Every
action should be available at any point of the game. Violations to
this are ADOM's overworld or Angand's and Crawl's shops.

====Complexity====

The game has enough complexity to allow several solutions to common
goals. This is obtained by providing enough item/monster and item/item
interactions and is strongly connected to having just one mode.

====Resource management====

You have to manage your limited resources (e.g. food, healing potions)
and find uses for the resources you receive.

====Hack'n'slash====

Even though there can be much more to the game, killing lots of
monsters is a very important part of a roguelike. The game is player-
vs-world: there are no monster/monster relations (like enmities, or
diplomacy).

====Exploration and discovery====

The game requires careful exploration of the dungeon levels and
discovery of the usage of unidentified items. This has to be done anew
every time the player starts a new game.

==Low value factors==

====Single player character====

The player controls a single character. The game is player-centric,
the world is viewed through that one character and that character's
death is the end of the game.

====Monsters are similar to players====

Rules that apply to the player apply to monsters as well. They have
inventories, equipment, use items, cast spells etc.

====Tactical challenge====

You have to learn about the tactics before you can make any
significant progress. This process repeats itself, i.e. early game
knowledge is not enough to beat the late game. (Due to random
environments and permanent death, roguelikes are challenging to new
players.)

The game's focus is on providing tactical challenges (as opposed to
strategically working on the big picture, or solving puzzles).

====ASCII display====

The traditional display for roguelikes is to represent the tiled world
by ASCII characters.

====Dungeons====

Roguelikes contain dungeons, such as levels composed of rooms and
corridors.

====Numbers====

The numbers used to describe the character (hit points, attributes
etc.) are deliberately shown.

[Emphyrio]

Can you explain the supposedly correct definition?

This one is pretty solid:

==Preamble==
This definition of "Roguelike" was created at the International
Roguelike Development Conference 2008 and is the product of a
discussion between all who attended. The definition at
http://www.roguetemple.com/roguelike-definition/ was used as the
starting point for the discussions. Most factors are newly phrased,
new factors have been added, some factors have been removed.

==General Principles==

"Roguelike" refers to a genre, not merely "like-Rogue". The genre is
represented by its canon. The canon for Roguelikes is ADOM, Angband,
Crawl, Nethack, and Rogue.

This list can be used to determine how roguelike a game is. Missing
some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise,
possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

The purpose of the definition is for the roguelike community to better
understand what the community is studying. It is not to place
constraints on developers or games.

==High value factors==

====Random environment generation====

The game world is randomly generated in a way that increases
replayability. Appearance and placement of items is random.
Appearance of monsters is fixed, their placement is random.
Fixed content (plots or puzzles or vaults) removes randomness.

====Permadeath====

You are not expected to win the game with your first character. You
start over from the first level when you die. (It is possible to save
games but the savefile is deleted upon loading.) The random
environment makes this enjoyable rather than punishing.

====Turn-based====

Each command corresponds to a single action/movement. The game is not
sensitive to time, you can take your time to choose your action.

====Grid-based====

The world is represented by a uniform grid of tiles. Monsters (and
the player) take up one tile, regardless of size.

====Non-modal====

Movement, battle and other actions take place in the same mode. Every
action should be available at any point of the game. Violations to
this are ADOM's overworld or Angand's and Crawl's shops.

====Complexity====

The game has enough complexity to allow several solutions to common
goals. This is obtained by providing enough item/monster and item/item
interactions and is strongly connected to having just one mode.

====Resource management====

You have to manage your limited resources (e.g. food, healing potions)
and find uses for the resources you receive.

====Hack'n'slash====

Even though there can be much more to the game, killing lots of
monsters is a very important part of a roguelike. The game is player-
vs-world: there are no monster/monster relations (like enmities, or
diplomacy).

====Exploration and discovery====

The game requires careful exploration of the dungeon levels and
discovery of the usage of unidentified items. This has to be done anew
every time the player starts a new game.

==Low value factors==

====Single player character====

The player controls a single character. The game is player-centric,
the world is viewed through that one character and that character's
death is the end of the game.

====Monsters are similar to players====

Rules that apply to the player apply to monsters as well. They have
inventories, equipment, use items, cast spells etc.

====Tactical challenge====

You have to learn about the tactics before you can make any
significant progress. This process repeats itself, i.e. early game
knowledge is not enough to beat the late game. (Due to random
environments and permanent death, roguelikes are challenging to new
players.)

The game's focus is on providing tactical challenges (as opposed to
strategically working on the big picture, or solving puzzles).

====ASCII display====

The traditional display for roguelikes is to represent the tiled world
by ASCII characters.

====Dungeons====

Roguelikes contain dungeons, such as levels composed of rooms and
corridors.

====Numbers====

The numbers used to describe the character (hit points, attributes
etc.) are deliberately shown.

hades fits most of that. "Missing
some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike."

[rusty_shackleford]

There's a reason Diablo wasn't referred to as a roguelike. The current definition is ridiculous, and Diablo would definitely be called one if released today.

[WhiteShark]

hades fits most of that.

It's missing permadeath (in the strict sense, a reset of all progress), turn-based, grid-based, the discovery and rediscovery of the use of unidentified items clause of exploration and discovery - and arguably the other clause as well, since you don't really explore in Hades -, monster-player similarity, and an ASCII display (personally I think this one is stupid, but regardless, Hades lacks this). That's 4/9 of the high-value factors and 2/6 low-value factors missing. So yes, you are technically correct: it fits most, i.e. the majority, of the criteria. Barely.

This sort of game is the reason the term 'roguelite' was invented, because when nearly half (or actually half, depending on how you count them) the high-value factors are missing, it becomes a bit silly to keep calling it a roguelike.

[maidenhaver]

Maybe Rogue needs to go missing.

[rusty_shackleford]

My personal opinion is the one feature a game absolutely must have to even begin considering it as a roguelike is consequence persistence.

When people talk about permadeath, they talk about us three being mean. 'Oh, they wanted to make it extra hard, so they threw in permadeath.' … permadeath is an example of 'consequence persistence.' … Do I read this scroll, do I drink this potion? I don't know. It might be good. It might be bad. If I can save the game and then drink the potion and—oh, it's bad-then I restore the game and I don't drink the potion. That entire game mechanic just completely goes away. So that was a whole reason why once you have taken an action and a consequence has happened, there's no way to go back and undo it.
…
The good stuff is just as permanent as the bad stuff.

This should be something more prevalent in games as a whole, the only big name games I can think of that do it are the dork souls games. The non-From soulslike don't qualify because they never have any real choices therefore no real consequences, they just copy the combat and call it a day.

[WhiteShark]

My personal opinion is the one feature a game absolutely must have to even begin considering it as a roguelike is consequence persistence.

I fully agree, and I likewise consider turn-based to be an indispensable factor.

[Anon]

My personal opinion is the one feature a game absolutely must have to even begin considering it as a roguelike is consequence persistence.

When people talk about permadeath, they talk about us three being mean. 'Oh, they wanted to make it extra hard, so they threw in permadeath.' … permadeath is an example of 'consequence persistence.' … Do I read this scroll, do I drink this potion? I don't know. It might be good. It might be bad. If I can save the game and then drink the potion and—oh, it's bad-then I restore the game and I don't drink the potion. That entire game mechanic just completely goes away. So that was a whole reason why once you have taken an action and a consequence has happened, there's no way to go back and undo it.
…
The good stuff is just as permanent as the bad stuff.

This should be something more prevalent in games as a whole, the only big name games I can think of that do it are the dork souls games. The non-From soulslike don't qualify because they never have any real choices therefore no real consequences, they just copy the combat and call it a day.

L*rian tries to do that with honour mode as well

[Nammu Archag]

Can you explain the supposedly correct definition?

This one is pretty solid:

==Preamble==
This definition of "Roguelike" was created at the International
Roguelike Development Conference 2008 and is the product of a
discussion between all who attended. The definition at
http://www.roguetemple.com/roguelike-definition/ was used as the
starting point for the discussions. Most factors are newly phrased,
new factors have been added, some factors have been removed.

==General Principles==

"Roguelike" refers to a genre, not merely "like-Rogue". The genre is
represented by its canon. The canon for Roguelikes is ADOM, Angband,
Crawl, Nethack, and Rogue.

This list can be used to determine how roguelike a game is. Missing
some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise,
possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

The purpose of the definition is for the roguelike community to better
understand what the community is studying. It is not to place
constraints on developers or games.

==High value factors==

====Random environment generation====

The game world is randomly generated in a way that increases
replayability. Appearance and placement of items is random.
Appearance of monsters is fixed, their placement is random.
Fixed content (plots or puzzles or vaults) removes randomness.

====Permadeath====

You are not expected to win the game with your first character. You
start over from the first level when you die. (It is possible to save
games but the savefile is deleted upon loading.) The random
environment makes this enjoyable rather than punishing.

====Turn-based====

Each command corresponds to a single action/movement. The game is not
sensitive to time, you can take your time to choose your action.

====Grid-based====

The world is represented by a uniform grid of tiles. Monsters (and
the player) take up one tile, regardless of size.

====Non-modal====

Movement, battle and other actions take place in the same mode. Every
action should be available at any point of the game. Violations to
this are ADOM's overworld or Angand's and Crawl's shops.

====Complexity====

The game has enough complexity to allow several solutions to common
goals. This is obtained by providing enough item/monster and item/item
interactions and is strongly connected to having just one mode.

====Resource management====

You have to manage your limited resources (e.g. food, healing potions)
and find uses for the resources you receive.

====Hack'n'slash====

Even though there can be much more to the game, killing lots of
monsters is a very important part of a roguelike. The game is player-
vs-world: there are no monster/monster relations (like enmities, or
diplomacy).

====Exploration and discovery====

The game requires careful exploration of the dungeon levels and
discovery of the usage of unidentified items. This has to be done anew
every time the player starts a new game.

==Low value factors==

====Single player character====

The player controls a single character. The game is player-centric,
the world is viewed through that one character and that character's
death is the end of the game.

====Monsters are similar to players====

Rules that apply to the player apply to monsters as well. They have
inventories, equipment, use items, cast spells etc.

====Tactical challenge====

You have to learn about the tactics before you can make any
significant progress. This process repeats itself, i.e. early game
knowledge is not enough to beat the late game. (Due to random
environments and permanent death, roguelikes are challenging to new
players.)

The game's focus is on providing tactical challenges (as opposed to
strategically working on the big picture, or solving puzzles).

====ASCII display====

The traditional display for roguelikes is to represent the tiled world
by ASCII characters.

====Dungeons====

Roguelikes contain dungeons, such as levels composed of rooms and
corridors.

====Numbers====

The numbers used to describe the character (hit points, attributes
etc.) are deliberately shown.

thank you, this is much more tangible, though it seems that main difference between what people are calling fake roguelikes is mostly the turn-based related stuff. no?

[WhiteShark]

it seems that main difference between what people are calling fake roguelikes is mostly the turn-based related stuff. no?

Well, turn-based is a very big factor, but true permadeath is the other big one. Roguelites typically have some form of progression that carries over from run to run, whereas roguelikes do not: each run is a completely fresh start.

[Hauberk]

Rogue, roguelike, roguelite, modern roguelike... Just like RPG, CRPG, RPG game R00fles!. All of those (often arbitrary) terms might be confusing. Especially if you're a younger person who wasn't "there" back in the day. So what is Rogue the namesake all about, then?

► Pictures

Rogue(1980) is a computer simulation of a Dungeons & Dragons (i.e. tabletop RPG), one refree, one player dungeon run. That's all there is to it, and when you understand the foundation of the genre it becomes easier to speculate about what is or isn't a "game like Rogue".

Why is permanent death a feature of the computer games? Because if you die in the tabletop RPG, you roll up a new character. Et cetera.

I should also note that, as mind-boggling as it sounds, playing an RPG back then was a lot like playing a wargame and not some outlet of acting out your perverted sexual desires with a bunch of other sickos. Which it seems like if you look at the hobbyists of 2024...

[Goth-Girl-Supremacy]

I always did prefer Thieflikes.

ackackackack

[rusty_shackleford]

Barony seems much better than I thought.

[Nammu Archag]

Barony seems much better than I thought.

is this a roguelike or a roguelite

[Vergil]

Barony seems much better than I thought.

is this a roguelike or a roguelite

Need to know this too, I always refuse to say either phrase out loud so I don't sound like a retard

[rusty_shackleford]

Barony seems much better than I thought.

is this a roguelike or a roguelite

action roguelike, which is distinct from roguelike

[Nammu Archag]

Barony seems much better than I thought.

is this a roguelike or a roguelite

action roguelike, which is distinct from roguelike

Thanks. Either way looks like a neat game

[Rigwort]

I wrote a bit somewhere talking about Barony. Whereas other games come out looking nothing like a roguelike and label themselves as being one, Barony almost wears the skin of a Roguelike. For instance, potions: they always are in the same colored bottle and you can mix them the same way to get the same results. You rarely have problems with cursed items or identification because most classes can either immediately identify or can train in it. The XP system is skill-based. It's definitely an interesting take, and treads the line between "-lite" and "-like" for me.

With all that, it is an enjoyable game, and should be played with friends. One moment I bring up is when me and a buddy were the last two alive in a maze, I was badly wounded and he was mostly fine. I cast a spell to reveal the map then guide him through the maze as we avoid the sounds of enemies around corners/have him kill them. It was a great moment that was much more tense due to the fact that it had the action system in place. That run alone felt worth the game especially since we all got it on sale...

[DDC]

Rogue-whatever games make up the majority of my purchases. A long time ago, I imported Demons Souls because it looked awesome and the PS3 barely had any games at the time. After seeing how refreshing it was to get murderfucked repeatedly, I realized that modern gaming had been greatly diminished by the removal of any type of penalties for failing. Rather than something to be beaten (as in "prevailed over"), games had become more like amusement park rides with the player reduced to the role of a spectator. Play for X hours and you would beat the game.

As rogue-whatever games started to proliferate, I realized I liked them more than AAA games for a number of reasons:
-2D action games aren't being made by major developers with big budgets for the most part anymore, and the ones they do make usually get shoehorned into the metroidvania genre to pad out the playtime, which generally results in games that are boring and not very difficult. Rogue-whatevers have largely brought about the resurgence of hard-as-balls 2D action games with game over screens, and the quality of the best ones is very high.
-Theorycrafting the builds to clear these games is fun and they have some strategic decisions in what upgrades to take
-The randomized runs provide variety and keep you on your toes, whereas memorizing stages in a static game can turn into a slog
-for the most part, these games have little or no story and are not infected with pozzed faggotry

Recently I started playing some true classic "rogue-like" games like TOME and had a blast with those too, and I've always enjoyed deckbuilders. I would much rather play any of these games than some open-world UBIsoft-style shitfest.

[Cogemeister]

I wrote a bit somewhere talking about Barony. Whereas other games come out looking nothing like a roguelike and label themselves as being one, Barony almost wears the skin of a Roguelike. For instance, potions: they always are in the same colored bottle and you can mix them the same way to get the same results. You rarely have problems with cursed items or identification because most classes can either immediately identify or can train in it. The XP system is skill-based. It's definitely an interesting take, and treads the line between "-lite" and "-like" for me.

With all that, it is an enjoyable game, and should be played with friends. One moment I bring up is when me and a buddy were the last two alive in a maze, I was badly wounded and he was mostly fine. I cast a spell to reveal the map then guide him through the maze as we avoid the sounds of enemies around corners/have him kill them. It was a great moment that was much more tense due to the fact that it had the action system in place. That run alone felt worth the game especially since we all got it on sale...

I’ve been looking at this one recently as well. I enjoyed Dark and Darker before it became a shitshow and want something similar but more fleshed out with real builds.

[Cogemeister]

Is Tales of Qud any good? I saw Sseth’s video on it, and also saw how uptight and thin skinned the devs are.

[rusty_shackleford]

Is Tales of Qud any good? I saw Sseth’s video on it, and also saw how uptight and thin skinned the devs are.

Decent game but I can't recommend giving money to the developers, so just pirate it.
Development also slowed down significantly the further into politics the devs got. It's still unfinished nearly a decade after entering early access.

[Cogemeister]

Is Tales of Qud any good? I saw Sseth’s video on it, and also saw how uptight and thin skinned the devs are.

Decent game but I can't recommend giving money to the developers, so just pirate it.
Development also slowed down significantly the further into politics the devs got. It's still unfinished nearly a decade after entering early access.

Ah, I’ve also been looking into Tome as it seems super in depth. I didn’t realize caves of qud was still in early access like project zomboid lol.