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The immersive sims that I can vividly recall seem to rely heavily on stealth for their assumed gameplay loops. (Deus Ex, Dishonored, System Shock)

Is stealth an intrinsic element of immersive sims? Can a solid immersive sim be made where stealth is not a viable option?

Or more pointedly, is immersive sim more of a stealth game subgenre than an RPG subgenre?

Ultima Underworlds, Arx Fatalis.

It should be, yes. Ideally immersive sims should have multiple solutions to various problems that one can apply muh problem solving skills to accomplish.

The ultimate immersion sim would take place on a city block where you could burn everything to a crisp, get everyone in the area to become a Islamic terrorist, or just sit around baking cakes all day in a household oven (a house you broke into that is).

The sky is the limit with this ****.

For the game to be called an Imm Sim today I would say yes. Weird West was a twin stick shooter with Stealth mechanic, but Colantonio called it an Imm Sim and so did everyone else.

Immersive Sim isn't a real genre.

I don't think it is.

I would turn the issue on it's head: An immersive sim necessitates believable enemy behavior the player must be in a position to react to a situation in multiple ways to solve a problem something a game like serious sam does not have to solve.

Meaning that the sim always contains enemies that are not inherently aware of the player, or rather they need to have a system of perception rather than a script of merely reacting to player presence.

That does not necessitate that "stealth" mechanics must be part of a game, however any immersive sim will be able to played as if it had stealth mechanics if the player so choses.

I still said no, since while it seems system imminent it is not more of a stealth system than it is a system for many other purposes in a game, to make it a stealth game it needs extra steps to make stealth an efficient way of play, however since rudimentary systems must exist that would also be part of any stealth game, it is the easy choice to make.

While playing a game that's marked as 'immersive sim', i'm performing the various ingame actions that I would've done in real life, and I expect these actions to work. Something that makes sense to do. Things like stacking crates on top of each other to get to a higher place. Or avoiding combat by sneaking past enemies.

J1M wrote: ↑ December 17th, 2024, 06:47

Is stealth an intrinsic element of immersive sims?

I would say no.

At the most basic level the design philosophy that underpins immersive sims is all about allowing players to complete objectives any way they see fit - it doesn't matter how the task is completed, just that it is.

Granted, I can't think of an immersive sim that didn't feature stealth as an option, since it's been a staple of the "genre" since its inception, but neither should stealth be a requirement if it doesn't make sense for the context, character you're playing or the setting of the game.

Certainly makes it better.

The 'sim' part should give the enemies a cone of vision and a proper reaction to hearing sounds that appear out of place. The rest is up to the player.

Element wrote: ↑ December 17th, 2024, 11:28

The 'sim' part should give the enemies a cone of vision and a proper reaction to hearing sounds that appear out of place. The rest is up to the player.

See, thats what I wrote only without writing a book, could have been so easy.

Well, the opposite of the existence of stealth is omniscience. Omniscient foes that always know where the player is and immediately move to attack him when he activates them is not really immersive, now is it?

Does GTA San Andreas count as immersive sim?

logincrash wrote: ↑ December 29th, 2024, 14:08

Does GTA San Andreas count as immersive sim?

Does it have stealth?

J1M wrote: ↑ December 29th, 2024, 14:16

logincrash wrote: ↑ December 29th, 2024, 14:08

Does GTA San Andreas count as immersive sim?

Does it have stealth?

Very rudimentary stealth on foot. There is the police chase system too.

Vergil wrote: ↑ December 17th, 2024, 07:27

Immersive Sim isn't a real genre.

I find the naming rather redundant since many games in general want to be Immersive simulation of the real world.

Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: ↑ December 30th, 2024, 08:10

Vergil wrote: ↑ December 17th, 2024, 07:27

Immersive Sim isn't a real genre.

I find the naming rather redundant since many games in general want to be Immersive simulation of the real world.

The naming is to differentiate it from other, well-established, genres such as flight sim.

Better name to describe this specific design philosophy would have been 'emergent simulation' or something.

Stealth is an intrinsic part of life

I hate stealth in games so much, it's such a ******** mechanic. If anything, it actively ruins immysimmies due to how unimmersive it is to just start crouching and magically become invisible.
The only game I've ever played where stealth isn't stupid is one of the hitman games.

Stealth sucks ***. Especially the whole "Stay in shadows, enemies don't see you" until they do because stealth is broken and ****. Killing guards so they lie around where you killed em but can't move em? Sucks to be you. You can move em? Yeah well, enemies will, for whatever reason, still find them even if they are in some dark corner (of the earth)

Yes, and Dark Souls is a consolization/dumbing down of the stealth game loop where you sit and wait, observing their hard work until the game designer allows you to press actions.

Cmdr Shepard wrote: ↑ January 3rd, 2025, 18:06

Stealth sucks ***. Especially the whole "Stay in shadows, enemies don't see you" until they do because stealth is broken and ****. Killing guards so they lie around where you killed em but can't move em? Sucks to be you. You can move em? Yeah well, enemies will, for whatever reason, still find them even if they are in some dark corner (of the earth)

I hate that stealth games treat finding a body the same as getting spotted. The whole place goes on alert for a couple of minutes, then the stand-down order happens and everyone goes back to regular patrol routes and pretends nothing happened. Assuming the system worked correctly, if you're sloppy enough to let them find a body, you deserve to deal with high alert for the rest of the mission.

J1M wrote: ↑ December 17th, 2024, 06:47

The immersive sims that I can vividly recall seem to rely heavily on stealth for their assumed gameplay loops. (Deus Ex, Dishonored, System Shock)

Is stealth an intrinsic element of immersive sims? Can a solid immersive sim be made where stealth is not a viable option?

Or more pointedly, is immersive sim more of a stealth game subgenre than an RPG subgenre?

It is, but it hasn't got to be good; the quality of it can impact immersion, however.

To be immersed, nothing can be prevented that would be a logical choice in a given situation. Likewise, however, nothing illogical can be available.

Without stealth it can't be truly immerisive, but ever present stealth availability can also break the sense of immersion.

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ December 31st, 2024, 05:02

Better name to describe this specific design philosophy would have been 'emergent simulation' or something.

Nearly a perfect statement, your choices, and consequences, need to emerge from each other, logically.

Cmdr Shepard wrote: ↑ January 3rd, 2025, 18:06

Stealth sucks ***. Especially the whole "Stay in shadows, enemies don't see you" until they do because stealth is broken and ****.

Where did that even happen though? Old stuff like Thief and Splinter Cell had strict linkage between the light indicator in the HUD and the enemy's ability to spot you. Guards had patrol routes so you knew where not to stash the bodies. MGS avoided the whole thing with actual vision cones in the HUD You could move the bodies, too.

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ December 31st, 2024, 05:02

Better name to describe this specific design philosophy would have been 'emergent simulation' or something.

adventure simulator

Is video game stealth even realistic in the first place?

Try moving around within 50ft. of someone who is not distracted in a room that doesn't look like a hoarder's apartment and see how long it takes before he hears or sees you.

Havitner wrote: ↑ January 31st, 2025, 10:18

Is video game stealth even realistic in the first place?

only games with reasonable stealth are the hitman games, and perhaps any that use similar 'social stealth' systems