Elder Scrolls VI: The Reality and the Ideal

[KnightoftheWind]

Don't know who "TemplarGR" is, I'm afraid. But if he has the same thoughts as me, then the more the merrier.

[GhostCow]

Then why are you on an Elder Scrolls thread?, the series clearly isn't for you.

Am I only allowed to discuss things I like? Don't be retarded.

I suppose you can shitpost if you want, but if you have no interest the game/series we are discussing then I doubt you can add much to the conversation. I'd imagine your ideal Elder Scrolls VI would be a completely different game. i.e "Make it more like Pillars of Eternity!"

I would make the melee combat better and write a main quest that's actually interesting and makes me want to continue through it. Yeah, I guess that would be a completely different game.

[KnightoftheWind]

Am I only allowed to discuss things I like? Don't be retarded.

I suppose you can shitpost if you want, but if you have no interest the game/series we are discussing then I doubt you can add much to the conversation. I'd imagine your ideal Elder Scrolls VI would be a completely different game. i.e "Make it more like Pillars of Eternity!"

I would make the melee combat better and write a main quest that's actually interesting and makes me want to continue through it. Yeah, I guess that would be a completely different game.

But I thought you said you hated the entire series, not just certain aspects of it. There is always the question of what would make a good Elder Scrolls story, do they delve headfirst into lore?, or do they use it as background flavor for a simpler tale?. Each Elder Scrolls game works within it's own context, so what is relevant in Oblivion doesn't matter in any other game. They don't necessarily build off one another, and you don't have any prerequisites to worry about before you can play them. That's what, again, 343 does with it's games. If you want to understand what's going on in Halo 5 and Infinite, well you better read a dozen graphic novels!. That is what Bethesda wants to avoid with it's games, and I feel that is a wise decision.

I think the story can be simple, i.e "Giant black dragon wants to destroy the world", but what happens in the quest should be more interesting. That I can fully get behind. Skyrim's main quest wasn't the best.

[NEG]

If you didn't feel like you were on an epic adventure playing Skyrim, I don't know what to tell you.

Is this a joke account? Did @rusty_shackleford finally create that GPT bot I wanted?

In regards to Daggerfall, I am fully aware of it's age but I feel that it's primitive graphics provide a negative impression for me. Nothing really looks 'right', with it's simplistic dungeons and landscapes, and I could never really get into the experience of playing it. I'm not a graphics whore though believe me, I could play Morrowind just fine and can appreciate good art design. Ideally the next game would include certain elements from Daggerfall, like it's large cities, court system, and usury. Background flavor that would help make the next game stand out, because despite Daggerfall's age many of it's ideas were never even attempted again. It would help if ES VI takes place in High Rock, that way we could visit the exact same locations and see the improvements.

Man, ChatGPT is fantastic. I feel like I'm reading an actual reddit post.

[KnightoftheWind]

If you didn't feel like you were on an epic adventure playing Skyrim, I don't know what to tell you.

Is this a joke account? Did @rusty_shackleford finally create that GPT bot I wanted?

In regards to Daggerfall, I am fully aware of it's age but I feel that it's primitive graphics provide a negative impression for me. Nothing really looks 'right', with it's simplistic dungeons and landscapes, and I could never really get into the experience of playing it. I'm not a graphics whore though believe me, I could play Morrowind just fine and can appreciate good art design. Ideally the next game would include certain elements from Daggerfall, like it's large cities, court system, and usury. Background flavor that would help make the next game stand out, because despite Daggerfall's age many of it's ideas were never even attempted again. It would help if ES VI takes place in High Rock, that way we could visit the exact same locations and see the improvements.

Man, ChatGPT is fantastic. I feel like I'm reading an actual reddit post.

Ironically the one user (me) that thinks differently from the rest of the Borg is labeled an AI. Always nice when someone resorts to personal insults because of video games.
Yes, I like Skyrim. It's a fun romp and superior to it's predecessors in almost every way. Deal with it, sperg.

[NEG]

Butthurt detected. Skyrim is trash. Its story is trash. It's a game where you kill a dragon at level 1.

It's a Digital Disneyland amusement park ride, not a real RPG. And if you like it enough to spam paragraphs of text, you're probably the sperg here.

[KnightoftheWind]

Butthurt detected. Skyrim is trash. Its story is trash. It's a game where you kill a dragon at level 1.

It's a Digital Disneyland amusement park ride, not a real RPG. And if you like it enough to spam paragraphs of text, you're probably the sperg here.

Well thank you for the apt summary there, I suppose you aren't a fan of Disneyland then?. Would you frown and fold your arms while riding the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad?. Yes, Skyrim is a simplistic RPG, but it's still an RPG. You have a role, and you play a game. You are a character thrust into a role he/she was seldom prepared for, yet being a power fantasy, Skyrim enables you to kill dragons at level 1. You could say that was the intention from the get-go. Rather than playing as a plebian and working your way up, Skyrim gives you that power immediately.

Not your cup of tea?, well I'm sorry to hear that. There are dozens of other "real" RPGs you could play, right?. Games where stats and numbers are more important than the act of actually playing.

[NEG]

Well thank you for the apt summary there, I suppose you aren't a fan of Disneyland then?

I'm not even going to bother to read the rest of this. You admit that I'm right, that's what's important here. The rest is probably just cope.

[KnightoftheWind]

Well thank you for the apt summary there, I suppose you aren't a fan of Disneyland then?

I'm not even going to bother to read the rest of this. You admit that I'm right, that's what's important here. The rest is probably just cope.

I agree with you on the basis that Skyrim isn't a complex game, but that's what makes it enjoyable. It's a game where the mechanics take a back seat to actual adventuring and enjoying the scenery, like a Disneyland ride it simply offers the thrill. Not everything has to be Lawrence of Arabia, we can enjoy simpler experiences every now and then. People like to claim that Skyrim is only good for mods, but the game has to be 'worth' modding to begin with.

[rusty_shackleford]

oblivion for zoomers

[KnightoftheWind]

oblivion for zoomers

At least we can enjoy both:

[NEG]

People like to claim that Skyrim is only good for mods, but the game has to be 'worth' modding to begin with.

It's not though. It's just easy to mod. The actual content is unfixable unless you make a total conversion, which is less of a mod and more of a replacement game using the same engine.

If the game really were "worth" modding, people wouldn't have changed everything about it they could. They would have simply added to it. If it wasn't broken then this many people wouldn't be trying (and failing) to fix it.

[rusty_shackleford]

Oblivion actually had an interesting plot. I didn't finish it, but you weren't "the chosen one powerful human-dragon!", but just some schmuck who was at the wrong place at the right time. You're not even the protagonist, you're the protagonist's right-hand man.
If anything, Oblivion doesn't get enough praise for actually having a refreshingly unique story. Probably because most people quit before they can analyze it. Skyrim has to be the weakest of any Elder Scrolls entry and only a bit above the Bethouts.

[KnightoftheWind]

Oblivion actually had an interesting plot. I didn't finish it, but you weren't "the chosen one powerful human-dragon!", but just some schmuck who was at the wrong place at the right time. You're not even the protagonist, you're the protagonist's right-hand man.
If anything, Oblivion doesn't get enough praise for actually having a refreshingly unique story. Probably because most people quit before they can analyze it. Skyrim has to be the weakest of any Elder Scrolls entry and only a bit above the Bethouts.

I think Oblivion wasn't able to realize the potential of it's main plot, due to either time or technical constraints. The realm of Oblivion was a bore, and the world very static. You rarely see other NPCs out on the open road or in the forest, which gives the impression that Cyrodill is a rather sparse and empty province. Hypothetically if the game ever got a full remake, I'd like to see the world come alive with hundreds of NPCs doing different things, and an Oblivion that changes depending on the gates you enter. It would also help if there were more than 5 voice actors, and get whoever voiced Jauffre as far away as possible.

I think what's holding back a remaster of any kind, is the game's use of celebrity voice actors like Sean Bean. Bethesda probably doesn't want to pay extra royalties.

[NEG]

Oblivion actually had an interesting plot. I didn't finish it, but you weren't "the chosen one powerful human-dragon!"

Sort of. You were revealed to the Emperor in a dream, but other than that, I guess you were a nobody. Kind of loses its charm when you get to the first town and become "The Hero of Kvatch", who somehow is the only one who can close Oblivion gates though.

I wouldn't call Martin "the protagonist" either. He's even more of a nobody, but one that has a deus ex machina for the end. IIRC, he has very little accomplishment or character growth other than realizing and accepting his fate at the very end.

Daggerfall had more of a nobody feel, even if you were the Emperor's friend somehow. And btw, there were several different backgrounds the game would generate for you based on your choices. Things like helping him when he was on the run, or taking out some enemies of his by chance. Reading the custom bios at the end of character generation was always a real pleasure. Something few games do these days.

No dreams. No Oblivion gates that you're the only one who can close. No dragons that are supposedly going to burn down the world if you don't complete the main quest.

Just a mystery, that you're free to investigate or ignore, and a little bit of royal intrigue.

Oblivion doesn't get enough praise for actually having a refreshingly unique story.

Unique? I think most of its unique elements come from lore written in previous games.

Other than that, it's go to these several locations, get the McGuffins (via Oblivion gates or whatever), watch the cutscene where the final boss monster gets beaten via deus ex machina. If you re-explain the plot about cults, the end of the world etc., it might sound more interesting, but I think that just shows that anyone could write a plot better than Bethesda, even if they use all the same characters and plot points.

The game was so forgettable I had to look up the wiki just to remember most of this. Compare that to Morrowind in terms of uniqueness, and there's no contest.

[rusty_shackleford]

Kind of loses its charm when you get to the first town and become "The Hero of Kvatch"

I visited basically the entire map before going inside kvatch.

Oh, and if you care about TES lore, the guy holding the torch in that video is most likely the protagonist of Arena. Also, he sends you a letter in Morrowind & is a major character in Oblivion.
It's never spelled out exactly, but you can piece it together from the Daggerfall manual + ending of Arena, nobody else really fits the description given besides the Arena protagonist. Which would make him the only recurring TES (mainline) protagonist. The guy that Ocato replaced was, after all, the big bad guy of Arena — and Ocato was the only person in Uriel Septim's inner circle that he trusted, according to the manual.
Which, when taken together with the end of Arena…

[KnightoftheWind]

I think it would be interesting if the next game allowed you to unravel the main plot naturally, as opposed to placing pressure on you from the get-go like with Oblivion and Skyrim. That's what I liked about Morrowind, it gave you a sandbox and allowed you to explore it as much as you wanted. It would also be nice if your decisions had a tangible impact on the game world without it just being window dressing. The Civil War sideplot in Skyrim really should have mattered more, and perhaps it should've played out differently depending on whether or not you defeated Alduin yet, or even other sidequests. Maybe you could bolster the Imperial or Stormcloak army by accomplishing missions, decide to remain in the middle and profiteer, assasinate generals. There are so many things Bethesda could've done, but didn't.

[NEG]

Oh, and if you care about TES lore, the guy holding the torch in that video is most likely the protagonist of Arena.

This would fit, based on the lore. I'm not sure whether or not the Daggerfall devs meant for it to be so or not though.

I also don't know why they didn't give him pointed ears, since being from Firsthold, he probably should have been a High Elf.

[Tweed]

One reason I liked Daggerfall was because of the nobody feel. Unlike almost every other Bethesda game, you aren't the hero from the very beginning, just a friend of the emperor's doing him a few favors and from there you get entangled in the political game of the nobility.

Oh, and if you care about TES lore, the guy holding the torch in that video is most likely the protagonist of Arena.

It's Ocacto.

[aeternalis]

Oblivion actually had an interesting plot. I didn't finish it, but you weren't "the chosen one powerful human-dragon!", but just some schmuck who was at the wrong place at the right time. You're not even the protagonist, you're the protagonist's right-hand man.
If anything, Oblivion doesn't get enough praise for actually having a refreshingly unique story. Probably because most people quit before they can analyze it. Skyrim has to be the weakest of any Elder Scrolls entry and only a bit above the Bethouts.

I stand by my analysis of Oblivion's plot as a prescient postmodern narrative predicting the "non-participatory" and "content-consooming" society we live in today.

[NEG]

[KnightoftheWind]

Oblivion actually had an interesting plot. I didn't finish it, but you weren't "the chosen one powerful human-dragon!", but just some schmuck who was at the wrong place at the right time. You're not even the protagonist, you're the protagonist's right-hand man.
If anything, Oblivion doesn't get enough praise for actually having a refreshingly unique story. Probably because most people quit before they can analyze it. Skyrim has to be the weakest of any Elder Scrolls entry and only a bit above the Bethouts.

I stand by my analysis of Oblivion's plot as a prescient postmodern narrative predicting the "non-participatory" and "content-consooming" society we live in today.

I'd say Skyrim is more post-modern than Oblivion ever was. None of the NPCs outside of the main quest acknowledge you as the Dragonborn, and none of your deeds are recognized. At least in Oblivion you are referred to as the Hero of Kvatch and the Champion. If an NPC found you suspicious at the beginning of the game, he/she will still say so long after you've saved the world and did 100 good deeds around town. Not to mention that the dragons aren't even present before you reach a certain part in the main story, so it's almost as if the dragonborn shouldn't bother at all. Bethesda did a worse job trying to make a power fantasy, then when they weren't trying to.

Also, all of the guild quests are mediocre on repeat playthroughs, that much I remember. They're almost entirely scripted with no role playing freedom given to the player, it's so bad that joining the Thieves Guild is almost mandatory if you want to complete a main quest objective and find Max von Sydow, whether you want to or not.

[KnightoftheWind]

I've been replaying the game for a number of days now, with a handful of mods, and I have to say Skyrim hasn't aged as well as I once thought. I had a blast playing through a few years ago, but after playing Oblivion a few months back I can't help but compare the two and find Skyrim lacking in many aspects. Oblivion is just plain fun, and I can't shake the feeling that everything I do in Skyrim is just busy work. I don't know what changed, but damn I think you guys might be right after all. Maybe I just outgrew the game?.

[Acrux]

What are thoughts on Requiem or Enderal? Never really tried either one.

[rusty_shackleford]

What are thoughts on Requiem or Enderal? Never really tried either one.

Requiem is a rebalancing mod for Skyrim, Enderal is an entirely new game using the Skyrim engine.
Enderal is good, I'd recommend Enderal SE because regular Enderal has performance issues.

[KnightoftheWind]

Some mention this aspect about the Gothic games, that their world is comparatively much smaller than other RPGs, but they fill that smaller play space with a lot more unique NPCs and areas to explore. An issue I see with Elder Scrolls titles as a whole is their insistence on having a very large, yet very empty open world. Morrowind perhaps did it the best with it's interesting flora and landmasses, while Oblivion was the worst example with it's often simplistic and empty landscapes. Skyrim improves on this with it's lush forests and mountain scenery, but the issue still persists and it's perhaps made worse by the lack of any man-made beauty to compliment that landscape. The most you'll see is a dilapidated fort occupied by yet another bandit group, or tiny hamlets being labeled cities. Hardly what you'd consider quality open world content. The Elder Scrolls ideal of the open world only seems to make sense in Daggerfall, where the sense of scale complimented it's design and helped make it the "Fantasy life simulator" that it's fans enjoy. Cities are realistic, the distance between them are realistic, and the methods of travel are more cumbersome and require more thought. It perhaps doesn't make for good gameplay, there's a lot of downtime and a lot of guess work, but it does exactly what it sets out to do and can't be thought of as your typical pick-up-and-play RPG. Modern Elder Scrolls game aren't trying to be simulators, and yet they are still made with Daggerfall as a point of reference in some ways. They try to dilute Daggerfall's ideas when they shouldn't be.

I think with a hypothetical ES VI, Bethesda should really think about their open world design, and perhaps even follow Gothic's example. Smaller world, but better designed and with more interesting stuff to see and do. It would no doubt be a shock to fans, but I think it would make for a better game. They could perhaps even expand on it via DLC, adding more parts of Valenwood (as an example) with each expansion. The main game would be set in the centre and eastern side of the province, while the DLC would depict the Western side near the Summerset Isles and focus more on the Thalmor subplot introduced in Skyrim. This means the developer only have to focus on one aspect of the world, rather than trying to imagine the province as a whole in one go. This means less shortcuts being taken, less development time, and higher quality.

The traditional open sandbox would gradually unfold over time, and modders can of course expand the game as they see fit anyway. Adding more areas and content where they feel is best. Thoughts?.

[Emphyrio]

Honestly, I like Skyrim a lot more than most RPGs. Most RPGs are trying to be something I don't want. I want to have an adventure, not simulate playing a tabletop roleplaying game, complete with a simulated party of meme-spouting retards. Todd understands that. I have zero interest in wasting any more time on Pathfinder, or in playing BG3, or any other D&D game. I don't want to play any more games where I spend more time comparing the stats of some shoes or planning my "build" than I do exploring. I want to sneak through caves, fight monsters, find treasure, solve puzzles, see beautiful women, build a base, and punch everyone who annoys me.

My ideal TESVI would not have stats at all, at least not visible to the player. It isn't necessary to know if I have 67 hp or 70, I just need a very rough idea of how wounded I am. I don't need to know if an ax does 30 damage or 32, I just need to know that a dwemer axe is better than a steel axe. Each type of weapon (sword, hammer) should have a different role, or behave differently.

There should be a lot more focus on puzzles, and dungeon terrain navigation. Besides a lantern, TESVIman could bring with him useful tools like shovels, pickaxes, grappling hooks. This would mean something if the inventory system was overhauled. Skyrim's inventory was meaningless until you hit the limit and suddenly gameplay comes to a stop because you've gotta sort through your 500 potions and the junk tab. I'd prefer kind of a grid like in Prey, enough to make inventory meaningful but not so involved that you're juggling things constantly. I'd like to be picking up and using tools and weapons I find in the dungeon, maybe a sledgehammer to knock down a wall, and then drop it when I don't need it anymore.

I'd like to have a bunch of henchmen helping me in my dungeon exploring. Porters, lightbearers, excavators, fighters, that kind of thing. I'm imagining going into a big chamber, and suddenly giant spiders come out and attack your guys, and you're running around stabbing spiders trying to save everyone. Then there's a lock you don't feel like picking, so you can have the thief you hired do it. Woops, turned out the door was trapped and now your thief won't get his share of the loot. Damn, that sucks.

Bethesda has spent a lot of time working on base-building, so I expect to be able to repair old castles, or build my own mansion, or even set up a base-camp at the hub of a dungeon.

[Emphyrio]

What are thoughts on Requiem or Enderal? Never really tried either one.

Enderal is great after you get past the horrible first hour. It's basically a long unskippable cutscene that ends up not affecting the story much anyway.

[KnightoftheWind]

I feel that the best way forward is to double down on the action-adventure elements, and really emphasize what the series does best. Which is immersing players in a fantasy world, with emphasis on cinematic flair and real-time storytelling. Trying to awkwardly juggle legacy CRPG elements would just hold the modern games back, and Skyrim was too successful to risk alienating zoomers with arbitrary stats and convoluted mechanics.

The "Elder Scrolls" means something different today than it did even in the Oblivion days, so there's no point wishing for a return to form of any kind. It's best to treat each new installment as it's own thing and allow the devs to flesh out the Skyrim approach in new and exciting ways. I'm talking strictly gameplay here, regardless of the inevitable ESG shlockfest we'll be force fed.

Also, the modding scene is dead in the water. Recently got banned from the Nexus for calling out a tranny and it's shitty Morrowind mod. So that website can go straight to hell one way or the other.

[Trithne]

Honestly, I like Skyrim a lot more than most RPGs. Most RPGs are trying to be something I don't want. I want to have an adventure, not simulate playing a tabletop roleplaying game, complete with a simulated party of meme-spouting retards. Todd understands that. I have zero interest in wasting any more time on Pathfinder, or in playing BG3, or any other D&D game. I don't want to play any more games where I spend more time comparing the stats of some shoes or planning my "build" than I do exploring. I want to sneak through caves, fight monsters, find treasure, solve puzzles, see beautiful women, build a base, and punch everyone who annoys me.

My ideal TESVI would not have stats at all, at least not visible to the player. It isn't necessary to know if I have 67 hp or 70, I just need a very rough idea of how wounded I am. I don't need to know if an ax does 30 damage or 32, I just need to know that a dwemer axe is better than a steel axe. Each type of weapon (sword, hammer) should have a different role, or behave differently.

There should be a lot more focus on puzzles, and dungeon terrain navigation. Besides a lantern, TESVIman could bring with him useful tools like shovels, pickaxes, grappling hooks. This would mean something if the inventory system was overhauled. Skyrim's inventory was meaningless until you hit the limit and suddenly gameplay comes to a stop because you've gotta sort through your 500 potions and the junk tab. I'd prefer kind of a grid like in Prey, enough to make inventory meaningful but not so involved that you're juggling things constantly. I'd like to be picking up and using tools and weapons I find in the dungeon, maybe a sledgehammer to knock down a wall, and then drop it when I don't need it anymore.

I'd like to have a bunch of henchmen helping me in my dungeon exploring. Porters, lightbearers, excavators, fighters, that kind of thing. I'm imagining going into a big chamber, and suddenly giant spiders come out and attack your guys, and you're running around stabbing spiders trying to save everyone. Then there's a lock you don't feel like picking, so you can have the thief you hired do it. Woops, turned out the door was trapped and now your thief won't get his share of the loot. Damn, that sucks.

Bethesda has spent a lot of time working on base-building, so I expect to be able to repair old castles, or build my own mansion, or even set up a base-camp at the hub of a dungeon.

Sounds like you need a more open-ended Arx Fatalis.