Gary Gygax thread
Posted: February 27th, 2023, 05:50
Games that lack this fall in two directions: Either they become much more like a fairytale with no grounding, or they become overly sterile — a collection of ideas with no collective whole, created piecemeal. You can see this in many cRPGs: Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp. Games that have made race/species & sex merely a cosmetic fall into the former.The intention behind Gygaxian Naturalism is to paint a picture of a "real" world, which is to say, a world that exists for reasons other than purely gaming ones. The implication is that monsters have lives of their own and thus go about their business doing various things until they encounter the player characters. Exactly what they do is described by reference to game mechanics, whether it be the numbers of non-combatants in a lair or spell-like abilities that help the monster do whatever it naturally does when it's not facing off against an adventuring party.
A consequence of Gygaxian Naturalism is that it grounds D&D a bit more in a pseudo-reality. I don't mean to imply that it's realistic in any meaningful sense, only that its fantasy follows "natural" laws of a sort, much in the way that, for example, I know that there are squirrels and raccoons and rabbits in my neighborhood who go about their business when I'm not seeing them in my yard or chasing them away from my recycling bins. That's one reason why AD&D has stats for so many kinds of "ordinary" animals: you can't build a "real" world without stats for sheep and cows and horses and such, because you never know when the PCs might need to kill one.
I think it's okay to let the game become more like an "ungrounded" fairytale if you're consciously deciding to go in that direction. In that case, it's probably more likely to be going in a "thematic/symbolic" direction. There needs to be some sort of grounding, an "internal consistency", even if the world as presented appears implausible. Planescape comes immediately to my mind (of course, lol storyfag) because it's quite internally consistent; it just plays by different rules.rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ February 27th, 2023, 22:57Games that lack this fall in two directions: Either they become much more like a fairytale with no grounding, or they become overly sterile — a collection of ideas with no collective whole, created piecemeal. You can see this in many cRPGs: Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp. Games that have made race/species & sex merely a cosmetic fall into the former.
The later Ultima games and games such as Ultima Underworld are obvious counterexamples.
Yeah, too bad about the combat.aeternalis wrote: ↑ February 27th, 2023, 23:15I think it's okay to let the game become more like an "ungrounded" fairytale if you're consciously deciding to go in that direction. In that case, it's probably more likely to be going in a "thematic/symbolic" direction. There needs to be some sort of grounding, an "internal consistency", even if the world as presented appears implausible. Planescape comes immediately to my mind (of course, lol storyfag) because it's quite internally consistent; it just plays by different rules.
I think the sterility "option" is obviously to be avoided at all costs; in fact, it feels like a non-option, like letting everything fall to the whims of bureaucracy... such games feel like they were just bashed together by committee with no clear creative direction, which is what I personally see in the current state of AAA and with tabletop games like D&D 5e.
I don't have an opinion on Pillars in particular. The story and world seemed like they had promise, but the gameplay and systems felt sterile as heck, and RTwP didn't help, so it didn't hold my attention. Maybe wrong place/wrong time for me as a player. I agree about Ultima, Ultima 7 in particular nailed that Gygaxian naturalism.
But myth is exactly this. Myth has always been an explanation for reality, not something separate from it.Klerik wrote: ↑ March 10th, 2023, 06:04The idea of "fantasy" or "myth" is an outdated catagorization because even the most fanciful and abstract fiction is based off of some aspect of reality that follows some sort of ruleset.
WhiteShark wrote: ↑ March 10th, 2023, 06:35But myth is exactly this. Myth has always been an explanation for reality, not something separate from it.
You two are on some big-brain thoughts. Please accept a brofist from me because I can't give one on this forum.Klerik wrote: ↑ March 10th, 2023, 06:37Indeed, that is a new awareness. Not the typical materialist notion that was accepted when I was in my younger years.
The idea of "realist" fiction is also outdated, as realism exists in a fantasy world where there is nothing beyond mundane human understanding.Klerik wrote: ↑ March 10th, 2023, 06:04The idea of "fantasy" or "myth" is an outdated catagorization because even the most fanciful and abstract fiction is based off of some aspect of reality that follows some sort of ruleset.
Probably because it's impossible to acquire LA material without pirating due to Gail Gygax pulling everything he worked on from Troll Lord Games.Emphyrio wrote: ↑ April 6th, 2023, 22:00How come guys who claim to be Gygax fans still play D&D instead of Lejendary Adventures?
Definitely Gygax. Every time I see him or learn anything new about him I like him more.Ranselknulf wrote: ↑ March 3rd, 2023, 14:58Fast forward to today, I'm not sure which would have been better. D&D being owned by a cocaine sex party fiend, or the woke stazi penning thousands of gender queer story arcs.