Baldur's Gate 3

[Anon]

So much focusing in the woke in BG3 here, without adressing a more pressing issue with the game: the writing in general - which admittedly is why we have woke in the game as well, although I see that more as a symtom and not a cause. Simply put, BG3 is a badly written game, and it's mindboggling how much praise the game has gotten with all the rewards and whatnot.

Interestingly enough, the game was not as far as I know touched by SBI or any of tis equivalent companies, but Larian did that themselves. What is even more interesting is that BG3 is apparently an exception to the adage 'go woke, go broke' since it has sold very well. I have listened to a number of people on YT with about the same mindset as people here like Endymion, and even he - woke-alltergic as he is - likes BG3. Why? I can't tell. What I do suspect is that BG3 wields the same magic as the Cameron movie Avatar did, blinding people with effects when it's just a polished turd - or in Avatar's case, Pocahontas in space.

That in turn makes me think that people need to stop and reflect more on what they like/dislike, and why. Picking a game like BG3 apart will show the very shaky narrative structure, but it seems the fans are unable to do that. So I'd say people are willfully blind and stupid.

I think the overall writing is pretty mediocre (though I wouldn't qualify as bad), that's definitely not one of BG3 strengths (but also not the biggest issue).

[Oyster Sauce]

I'm fine with the quality of writing, just not the weird decision to shift focus away from mindflayers when the opening of the game, story hook, ending, and all of the marketing was centered around them.

[TKVNC]

I honestly think the reason BG3 sold so well is that most modern CRPGs are just garbage.

So despite all it's magnitude issues, BG3 generally has enough 'good' to stand out as far beyond the industry average, all the seethe articles explain this pretty well too.

It's just a shame that to get a halfway decent game, we had to tolerate a bucket full of wokeslop ontop.

[Anon]

I'm fine with the quality of writing, just not the weird decision to shift focus away from mindflayers when the opening of the game, story hook, ending, and all of the marketing was centered around them.

Imo it was the mindflayer plot that was the problem overall. They are boring, unrelateable enemies, fit only to be secondary villains like in BG2. The god wars theme in the game is way more interesting and intriguing, and the game would've been way better if it was the ultimate plot.

[Xenich]

So much focusing in the woke in BG3 here, without adressing a more pressing issue with the game: the writing in general - which admittedly is why we have woke in the game as well, although I see that more as a symtom and not a cause. Simply put, BG3 is a badly written game, and it's mindboggling how much praise the game has gotten with all the rewards and whatnot.

Yes, it is badly written, but from what I remember, all their games have been pretty bad in that department. Rather than being well written and deep stories, they were more like a fanfiction novel with lots of puns. As for the praise, that which pushes woke is always praised as award winning, remember "Broke Back Mountain" snubbing out all legitimate films and being praised as the "best movie eva!".

Interestingly enough, the game was not as far as I know touched by SBI or any of tis equivalent companies, but Larian did that themselves. What is even more interesting is that BG3 is apparently an exception to the adage 'go woke, go broke' since it has sold very well. I have listened to a number of people on YT with about the same mindset as people here like Endymion, and even he - woke-alltergic as he is - likes BG3. Why? I can't tell. What I do suspect is that BG3 wields the same magic as the Cameron movie Avatar did, blinding people with effects when it's just a polished turd - or in Avatar's case, Pocahontas in space.

That is what we have seen so far, that it was Larian themselves. Honestly doesn't surprise me, while D:OS 2 wasn't as bad as BG3, it had signs that showed they were heading that way. BG3 is a special case, a lot of these "woke" extremes and directions weren't shown in early access, but were added on release (or weren't the parts tested by EA), so there was a perception that people had for some of the sales. In terms of liking the game, I think it is the game play system. Larians system is pretty good, better than any other turn based adaption out there, so even with the poor writing, the game still has some fun play and in an industry where everything is garbage regardless of woke, BG3 stands out.

If they continue to push hard woke, how well it does will depend on if people can mod it and something tells me (just a hunch) that we may see the next title developed in a manner that gives them far more control over the modding process which may hamper external modding in terms of ease and functionality. I know some may not prescribe to the conspiracy levels that I do, but it really angers the many alphabets that people are changing things, I think something will be done to limit that ability in the future.

That in turn makes me think that people need to stop and reflect more on what they like/dislike, and why. Picking a game like BG3 apart will show the very shaky narrative structure, but it seems the fans are unable to do that. So I'd say people are willfully blind and stupid.

Yes, but a lot of the people playing games these days are just interested in being entertained and don't often look to the details you mention to isolate mechanics and the like to figure out what it is they like/dislike. It is more simplistic in that view and they lose interest when people over analyze it. It was a problem that affected AD&D over the years dividing the base, as well as general gaming design direction in cRPGs (ie my fun, my entertainment, etc... disconnected from logical reasoning).

[gastovski]

Did you notice that kissing scenes so bland like partners dont hold each other while doing it or looking very intimate?, damn fakers

[Kowe]

I'm fine with the quality of writing, just not the weird decision to shift focus away from mindflayers when the opening of the game, story hook, ending, and all of the marketing was centered around them.

Imo it was the mindflayer plot that was the problem overall. They are boring, unrelateable enemies, fit only to be secondary villains like in BG2. The god wars theme in the game is way more interesting and intriguing, and the game would've been way better if it was the ultimate plot.

A few bosses honestly had underwhelming story lines or appearances. The Absolute, Sarevok, Cazador, Gortash, Lorroakan. The game could have also really benefited from another Act or having the third fleshed out.
The gods are also naturally more interesting because they allow for way more interactions and nuances, with what they can embody. While the mindflayers aren't bad enemies in that they are evil in nature, they did seem weak and not much of a threat throughout the game. Irrespective of the usage of the Netherstones whick kept the Netherbrain in check.

[rusty_shackleford]

I felt zero connection to the bhaalspawn questline whatsoever. I just assumed it was all dark urge-related content and was basically someone else's story intruding on my story.

[Shillitron]

A few bosses honestly had underwhelming story lines or appearances. The Absolute, Sarevok, Cazador, Gortash, Lorroakan. The game could have also really benefited from another Act or having the third fleshed out.
The gods are also naturally more interesting because they allow for way more interactions and nuances, with what they can embody. While the mindflayers aren't bad enemies in that they are evil in nature, they did seem weak and not much of a threat throughout the game. Irrespective of the usage of the Netherstones whick kept the Netherbrain in check.

Act 1 is the strongest part of BG3.
It sets up so much potential and was great to explore, it technically includes the Underdark and Duergar area too.

The last 2 acts happen at a neck break speed and the story spirals out completely.
Act 3 is the hugest disappointment - half the city is unvisitable and all the setups from Act 1 drop off.

[rusty_shackleford]

A few bosses honestly had underwhelming story lines or appearances. The Absolute, Sarevok, Cazador, Gortash, Lorroakan. The game could have also really benefited from another Act or having the third fleshed out.
The gods are also naturally more interesting because they allow for way more interactions and nuances, with what they can embody. While the mindflayers aren't bad enemies in that they are evil in nature, they did seem weak and not much of a threat throughout the game. Irrespective of the usage of the Netherstones whick kept the Netherbrain in check.

Act 1 is the strongest part of BG3.
It sets up so much potential and was great to explore, it technically includes the Underdark and Duergar area too.

The last 2 acts happen at a neck break speed and the story spirals out completely.
Act 3 is the hugest disappointment - half the city is unvisitable and all the setups from Act 1 drop off.

Well, which would you rather have: the majority of the city in-game as intended… or more gay romance and cutting half the city out of the game? You gotta prioritize.

[rusty_shackleford]

So, since Larian said they're "done" with BG3, does that mean no mod tools will be released unlike DOS1 & 2?
Despite what Swen has said, this feels like Swen jilted WotC. There's parts of the game that were obviously being worked on before it even launched, and still being worked on, that they wanted to put in the game. As if WotC demanded a contract renegotiation or something.

[Oldtimer]

I felt zero connection to the bhaalspawn questline whatsoever. I just assumed it was all dark urge-related content and was basically someone else's story intruding on my story.

It was probably a throwback to the earlier games where you play as a de-facto Bhaalspawn; another poor attempt to justify the name 'Baldur's Gate 3'. I never got that far though in BG3 to see that quest, but I take your word for it.

[rusty_shackleford]

I felt zero connection to the bhaalspawn questline whatsoever. I just assumed it was all dark urge-related content and was basically someone else's story intruding on my story.

It was probably a throwback to the earlier games where you play as a de-facto Bhaalspawn; another poor attempt to justify the name 'Baldur's Gate 3'. I never got that far though in BG3 to see that quest, but I take your word for it.

It attempts to be far too personal and my character has no connection to it. It feels like you're playing someone else's story.

[Oldtimer]

The gods are also naturally more interesting because they allow for way more interactions and nuances, with what they can embody. While the mindflayers aren't bad enemies in that they are evil in nature, they did seem weak and not much of a threat throughout the game. Irrespective of the usage of the Netherstones whick kept the Netherbrain in check.

The gods ('The Dead Three') are indeed interesting; they are however all dead and stay that way. I agree regarding the mindflayers, at least the few I met: way too weak. In BG2 when I ended up in their dungeon it took every spell and summoned creature I could find to kick their asses. But: Yes, they are evil to the core.

[TKVNC]

So, since Larian said they're "done" with BG3, does that mean no mod tools will be released unlike DOS1 & 2?
Despite what Swen has said, this feels like Swen jilted WotC. There's parts of the game that were obviously being worked on before it even launched, and still being worked on, that they wanted to put in the game. As if WotC demanded a contract renegotiation or something.

Interesting, and a concerning question too. I would find it funny, though, if Baldur's Gate 3 becomes abandonware.

[Xenich]

So, since Larian said they're "done" with BG3, does that mean no mod tools will be released unlike DOS1 & 2?
Despite what Swen has said, this feels like Swen jilted WotC. There's parts of the game that were obviously being worked on before it even launched, and still being worked on, that they wanted to put in the game. As if WotC demanded a contract renegotiation or something.

Maybe he just wants to move on to his Ultima VII game and they got enough capital to finally work on it?

[TKVNC]

Did you notice that kissing scenes so bland like partners dont hold each other while doing it or looking very intimate?, damn fakers

That's something interesting, I think. They have all of these 'scenes' they added in to the game - some of them willfully degenerate, yet at the same time, somehow lacked the conviction to create the properly.

I wonder if it's because it was all for panderings sake, and actually they found it hard to stomach themselves? We know what real, through and through degenerates can create with SFM, there's no particular reason why Larian could not have put more effort into the animations (among other things, given the size of the project).

If it was for pandering, then it makes sense, it's -technically- in game and the reality is that the people they are pandering to do not actually play games, not in large quantities, at least, so they're not likely to cause a fuss, as they won't actually see it - but they can comment on it.

Baldur's Gate 3 is a very peculiar game, I wonder if the entire approach was soured with the layoffs, and they just ran out of passion. Could be, could not be. Might just be a lack of passion fullstop, might be a lack of skill.

[Vergil]

Maybe they're just tired of working on this game they've been updating and adding content to for years now since early access and just want to move on. That and maybe they want to move on to a game that is fully their own IP to get a larger profit from with their newfound fame.

[orinEsque]

Did you notice that kissing scenes so bland like partners dont hold each other while doing it or looking very intimate?, damn fakers

That's something interesting, I think. They have all of these 'scenes' they added in to the game - some of them willfully degenerate, yet at the same time, somehow lacked the conviction to create the properly.

I wonder if it's because it was all for panderings sake, and actually they found it hard to stomach themselves? We know what real, through and through degenerates can create with SFM, there's no particular reason why Larian could not have put more effort into the animations (among other things, given the size of the project).

If it was for pandering, then it makes sense, it's -technically- in game and the reality is that the people they are pandering to do not actually play games, not in large quantities, at least, so they're not likely to cause a fuss, as they won't actually see it - but they can comment on it.

Baldur's Gate 3 is a very peculiar game, I wonder if the entire approach was soured with the layoffs, and they just ran out of passion. Could be, could not be. Might just be a lack of passion fullstop, might be a lack of skill.

Curiously, durge, the official main character of the game gets to see the LEAST amount of woke. Still too much though.

[Shillitron]

Well, which would you rather have: the majority of the city in-game as intended… or more gay romance and cutting half the city out of the game? You gotta prioritize.

I'd trade 1000 upper cities so that me and Astarion can have a gay incest orgy with a pair of drows that just randomly exist in a brothel for no reason other than a writer's personal fetish.

[rusty_shackleford]

There's parts of the game that were obviously being worked on before it even launched, and still being worked on, that they wanted to put in the game.

Weeks prior to launch Swen touted the upper city as being part of the game
From an interview:

Larian has split the city into three areas—the outer city, affluent upper city, and roguish lower city—all connected in a seamless open world. "You have crowds walking around everywhere," creative director Swen Vincke says. "You can talk to pretty much anybody, and they react to every single thing. It’s very alive in that sense."

https://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gate-3- ... pcgs-2023/
This isn't some 2020 article, this is just weeks prior to release.

Swen tried to walk this back in an interview later but it's obviously bullshit. Same with claiming e.g., Karlach's content wasn't "cut". They're either using a very different definition of "cut content", or lying. If they're using some weird definition of "it was completed then cut because they didn't like it", then … yes, I suppose. But it was obviously intended to be part of the game. And this directly goes against their own prior statements:
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 8763455642

This weekend, we unveiled the city of Baldur's Gate for the very first time, with a glimpse behind its walls and around its familiar labyrinthine streets. It's been about 20 years since we last had a pint in the Elfsong Tavern or crawled through the sewers beneath the city streets and, as you might have spotted during the PC Gaming Show, many of these locations are back, and many news ones are waiting to be discovered for the first time - giving you a chance to explore the menacing roads of the Outer City, the opulent estates of the Upper City, and the dark alleys and pubs of the Lower City.

And for those out of the loop, yes, Larian has claimed these weren't actually "cut" and this isn't "cut content"(???)

[TKVNC]

And for those out of the loop, yes, Larian has claimed these weren't actually "cut" and this isn't "cut content"(???)

The chief issue I see really is, if they have abandoned the game (looks like it), even if mod tools are released, it will probably be too little too late, the damage of woke, cut content, unrealised promises, and general jank might be enough for people to simply run out of interest in modding the game, the same as Starfield, I suppose.

So we'll probably never see something like Skyrim's famous Cutting Room Floor mod for BG3.

[rusty_shackleford]

That and maybe they want to move on to a game that is fully their own IP to get a larger profit from with their newfound fame.

Considering severely increased development costs and licensing fees, Larian probably isn't going to make much more from this than they made from DOS2 to begin with.

[gastovski]

Did you notice that kissing scenes so bland like partners dont hold each other while doing it or looking very intimate?, damn fakers

That's something interesting, I think. They have all of these 'scenes' they added in to the game - some of them willfully degenerate, yet at the same time, somehow lacked the conviction to create the properly.

I wonder if it's because it was all for panderings sake, and actually they found it hard to stomach themselves? We know what real, through and through degenerates can create with SFM, there's no particular reason why Larian could not have put more effort into the animations (among other things, given the size of the project).

If it was for pandering, then it makes sense, it's -technically- in game and the reality is that the people they are pandering to do not actually play games, not in large quantities, at least, so they're not likely to cause a fuss, as they won't actually see it - but they can comment on it.

Baldur's Gate 3 is a very peculiar game, I wonder if the entire approach was soured with the layoffs, and they just ran out of passion. Could be, could not be. Might just be a lack of passion fullstop, might be a lack of skill.

I remember they were hiring intimacy coach for sex/kissing scenes probably why its so fake but then sex scenes very detailed i dunno

[rusty_shackleford]

increased development costs

Depending on whether you trust this source or not, BG3 had a budget of $100m
https://www.ign.com/articles/josh-sawye ... zed-budget

We know DOS1 cost around $5m to make
https://www.pcgamer.com/how-divinity-or ... n-studios/

Larian initially had 1.5 million Euros to spend on Divinity: Original Sin and hoped to build it on a budget of 3 million. In the end, the studio spent 4.5 million Euros.

DOS2 is obviously much closer to DOS1 than BG3 in development cost. To what extent, I don't know if there's any public data.

From the recent Larian statement, BG3 isn't massively outselling DOS2(as some seem to think?)
https://wccftech.com/baldurs-gate-3-rep ... pg-closer/

It's almost double D:OS 2 now, so it's really doing really, really well.

We have no idea what kind of contract Larian has with WotC, of course. WotC's recent OGL 1.1 kerfuffle included a 25% royalty on companies that make over $750,000 in annual revenue, obviously this is entirely unrelated to any private contract WotC & Larian have, but it may possibly, or not, representative of what kind of IP licensing cut Larian is paying.

So… is it possible that Larian ends up making more money off of DOS2 than BG3? …I don't know. But it's closer than a lot would think, IMO.

[edit]

I have to say tho, the potential for failure here is so large that I couldn't imagine wanting to purposely create 1 BG3 instead of 20 Divinity: Original Sin-tier games. It's an obvious reason many publishers shifted towards the so-called 'AA'.

[gastovski]

Did you notice that kissing scenes so bland like partners dont hold each other while doing it or looking very intimate?, damn fakers

I forgot to mention i think one of latest updates added more intimate kissing scenes so its randomized now.

[Boontaker]

increased development costs

Depending on whether you trust this source or not, BG3 had a budget of $100m
https://www.ign.com/articles/josh-sawye ... zed-budget

We know DOS1 cost around $5m to make
https://www.pcgamer.com/how-divinity-or ... n-studios/

Larian initially had 1.5 million Euros to spend on Divinity: Original Sin and hoped to build it on a budget of 3 million. In the end, the studio spent 4.5 million Euros.

DOS2 is obviously much closer to DOS1 than BG3 in development cost. To what extent, I don't know if there's any public data.

From the recent Larian statement, BG3 isn't massively outselling DOS2(as some seem to think?)
https://wccftech.com/baldurs-gate-3-rep ... pg-closer/

It's almost double D:OS 2 now, so it's really doing really, really well.

We have no idea what kind of contract Larian has with WotC, of course. WotC's recent OGL 1.1 kerfuffle included a 25% royalty on companies that make over $750,000 in annual revenue, obviously this is entirely unrelated to any private contract WotC & Larian have, but it may possibly, or not, representative of what kind of IP licensing cut Larian is paying.

So… is it possible that Larian ends up making more money off of DOS2 than BG3? …I don't know. But it's closer than a lot would think, IMO.

[edit]

I have to say tho, the potential for failure here is so large that I couldn't imagine wanting to purposely create 1 BG3 instead of 20 Divinity: Original Sin-tier games. It's an obvious reason many publishers shifted towards the so-called 'AA'.

Wtf are they paying for that costs 95 million? Is that just art and graphics design? Mo cap? That can't be voice acting.

[Kowe]

A few bosses honestly had underwhelming story lines or appearances. The Absolute, Sarevok, Cazador, Gortash, Lorroakan. The game could have also really benefited from another Act or having the third fleshed out.
The gods are also naturally more interesting because they allow for way more interactions and nuances, with what they can embody. While the mindflayers aren't bad enemies in that they are evil in nature, they did seem weak and not much of a threat throughout the game. Irrespective of the usage of the Netherstones whick kept the Netherbrain in check.

Act 1 is the strongest part of BG3.
It sets up so much potential and was great to explore, it technically includes the Underdark and Duergar area too.

The last 2 acts happen at a neck break speed and the story spirals out completely.
Act 3 is the hugest disappointment - half the city is unvisitable and all the setups from Act 1 drop off.

Act 1 is also the biggest act. And the one which was accessible in Early Access, so they could use the feedback if they did. Its lack shows in Act 2 and 3 but they also had to release the game at some point. Looking at the EA releases, not sure when they started working on Act 2 and 3 but they had around 8-9 months from Patch 9. So, eh, explains the lackluster elements.
With Act 2, since I am a sucker for anything Halloween-themed or Undead, I consider it to still be good, mainly due to the Shadowlands. Ketheric Thorm is also one of the better villains in the game. Haven't really traversed the other Act 2 map with the Monastery.
Along Ketheric, Orin is also a good villain, and even if the story fell off as a whole in Act 3, it still had its good moments.
Let's hope we can mod whole acts or campaigns into the game in the future. Not sure if the official mod support in a few months will help with it or lead to issues. Cynically expecting the later.

[rusty_shackleford]

increased development costs

Depending on whether you trust this source or not, BG3 had a budget of $100m
https://www.ign.com/articles/josh-sawye ... zed-budget

We know DOS1 cost around $5m to make
https://www.pcgamer.com/how-divinity-or ... n-studios/

Larian initially had 1.5 million Euros to spend on Divinity: Original Sin and hoped to build it on a budget of 3 million. In the end, the studio spent 4.5 million Euros.

DOS2 is obviously much closer to DOS1 than BG3 in development cost. To what extent, I don't know if there's any public data.

From the recent Larian statement, BG3 isn't massively outselling DOS2(as some seem to think?)
https://wccftech.com/baldurs-gate-3-rep ... pg-closer/

It's almost double D:OS 2 now, so it's really doing really, really well.

We have no idea what kind of contract Larian has with WotC, of course. WotC's recent OGL 1.1 kerfuffle included a 25% royalty on companies that make over $750,000 in annual revenue, obviously this is entirely unrelated to any private contract WotC & Larian have, but it may possibly, or not, representative of what kind of IP licensing cut Larian is paying.

So… is it possible that Larian ends up making more money off of DOS2 than BG3? …I don't know. But it's closer than a lot would think, IMO.

[edit]

I have to say tho, the potential for failure here is so large that I couldn't imagine wanting to purposely create 1 BG3 instead of 20 Divinity: Original Sin-tier games. It's an obvious reason many publishers shifted towards the so-called 'AA'.

Wtf are they paying for that costs 95 million? Is that just art and graphics design? Mo cap? That can't be voice acting.

"Intimacy coaches" aren't cheap, ya know.
Anyone who says "x people can't do y" when you complain about a dev implementing feature A instead of B is also an imbecile. Everything costs money, x people might not be able to do y but they drain the same resource used to pay the people who can do y. One more intimacy coordinator is one less level designer.

[Anon]

So, since Larian said they're "done" with BG3, does that mean no mod tools will be released unlike DOS1 & 2?
Despite what Swen has said, this feels like Swen jilted WotC. There's parts of the game that were obviously being worked on before it even launched, and still being worked on, that they wanted to put in the game. As if WotC demanded a contract renegotiation or something.

No he has explicitly said he'll continue bug fixing the game and will release mod tools.