Why is Fallout interpreted as a 'critique of capitalism'?

[rusty_shackleford]

In fallout new vegas New Californian Republic described as a corrupt state that cares about the welfare of arms companies, livestock farmers and merchant houses more than the state itself. Army is undersupplied and underequipped and can't fully protect the republic territory, especially usual citizens from gangs, especially near border. Constant seizure of territories they cannot control, almost no protection of trade routes mentioned in New Vegas many times.

Criticism of what is all this?

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

[Roguey]

I hated that element, it turns human tragedy into goofy tinfoil hat bullshittery and it permanently scarred the franchise as a whole, allowing every mouthbreathing author out there to shit out a moronic "experiment" to justify all manner of stupidity.

In Fallout 1 the implication was that the vaults were failing due to human error, mismanagement, wartime shortages et al - it tells a far grimmer tale when Fallout 13 is in trouble because someone in the supply-chain fucked up and replacement chips didn't get delivered, or that Vault 12 failed because the vault door was faulty, or that people were forced to leave Vault 15 because of overcrowding.

The vault experiments were a patch on the fact that a vault could hold at most 500-1000 people and they said there were only 122 of them. 122,000 people at best (not even that) spread across America? That's the population of a small city. Dead civilization walking.

[Anon]

In fallout new vegas New Californian Republic described as a corrupt state that cares about the welfare of arms companies, livestock farmers and merchant houses more than the state itself. Army is undersupplied and underequipped and can't fully protect the republic territory, especially usual citizens from gangs, especially near border. Constant seizure of territories they cannot control, almost no protection of trade routes mentioned in New Vegas many times.

Criticism of what is all this?

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Trying to find the difference between both

[rusty_shackleford]

In fallout new vegas New Californian Republic described as a corrupt state that cares about the welfare of arms companies, livestock farmers and merchant houses more than the state itself. Army is undersupplied and underequipped and can't fully protect the republic territory, especially usual citizens from gangs, especially near border. Constant seizure of territories they cannot control, almost no protection of trade routes mentioned in New Vegas many times.

Criticism of what is all this?

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Trying to find the difference between both

If you can't see the difference then you're being purposely obtuse. FNV is essentially the anti-Bioshock, Sawyer was at his peak libertarian phase when he wrote it.

[Anon]

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Trying to find the difference between both

If you can't see the difference then you're being purposely obtuse.

Both are corrupt corporate of different breeds

[rusty_shackleford]

Trying to find the difference between both

If you can't see the difference then you're being purposely obtuse.

Both are corrupt corporate of different breeds

Right, just like the Legion?

[Anon]

If you can't see the difference then you're being purposely obtuse.

Both are corrupt corporate of different breeds

Right, just like the Legion?

Punch the nazis amirite

[Faceless_Sentinel]

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Are you shure? To me his very authoritarian.

[gerey]

That's the population of a small city. Dead civilization walking.

That's more than enough people to rebuild and repopulate though. Also, the assumption always was that not everyone would die, since smaller population centers wouldn't be primary targets.

I always viewed the vaults as a means to retain the knowledge and skills of the best and brightest, so they could exit the vaults once conditions on the surface improved and establish hotspots of civilization, ala Vault City.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Right, just like the Legion?

Aren't they are just organized barbarians, robbing and enslaving everyone in their path?

[rusty_shackleford]

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Are you shure? To me his very authoritarian.

He's functionally no different than the ideology espoused in e.g., Hoppean Libertarianism. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Sawyer was at least aware of Hoppe's work

[Faceless_Sentinel]

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Are you shure? To me his very authoritarian.

He's functionally no different than the ideology espoused in e.g., Hoppean Libertarianism. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Sawyer was at least aware of Hoppe's work

Oh God, every time i read about New Vegas from you guys, im happy that "in my dream" independence happened.

[Roguey]

That's more than enough people to rebuild and repopulate though. Also, the assumption always was that not everyone would die, since smaller population centers wouldn't be primary targets.

I always viewed the vaults as a means to retain the knowledge and skills of the best and brightest, so they could exit the vaults once conditions on the surface improved and establish hotspots of civilization, ala Vault City.

Nuclear winter gets rid of many of the people who didn't get blasted.

Anyway Tim Cain was convinced it wasn't enough and that's why he changed it.

[Roguey]

Are you shure? To me his very authoritarian.

The Realpolitik analyses of the NCR and the Legion were outlined quite well by Marcus in New Vegas. But what are your ultimate thoughts on House?

He's a laissez-faire dictator. "Do whatever you want as long as you don't cross me." Mr. House doesn't care about other people and what they do as long as Vegas remains prosperous and he remains in control.

Perhaps Mr. House is 'dictatorial' to the extent that he won't permit anyone to breach his quasi-governmental monopoly on force, but otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by 'laissez-faire dictator,' which seems like one heck of an oxymoron.

He doesn't place many restrictions on people -- or on businesses -- but he always gets his cut, and when he does make a decree, it's absolute. New Vegas is a place where people have to feel like they can do whatever they want. Mr. House doesn't restrict sexual behavior, drug use, or most other types of personal behavior. The only people who really feel his direct presence are representatives of other governments, those who explicitly cross him, and the heads of the families who have to give him a share of his profits.

The dictator whose only laws are "Pay me my cut" and "Don't do shit that messes with my bottom line."

[Faceless_Sentinel]

The dictator whose only laws are "Pay me my cut" and "Don't do shit that messes with my bottom line."

Until his "bottom line" reaches your lovely neighbourhood and you get fucked.

[Havitner]

I hated that element, it turns human tragedy into goofy tinfoil hat bullshittery and it permanently scarred the franchise as a whole, allowing every mouthbreathing author out there to shit out a moronic "experiment" to justify all manner of stupidity.

I agree, but I still love them.

[wndrbr]

In Fallout 1 the implication was that the vaults were failing due to human error, mismanagement, wartime shortages et al - it tells a far grimmer tale when Fallout 13 is in trouble because someone in the supply-chain fucked up and replacement chips didn't get delivered, or that Vault 12 failed because the vault door was faulty, or that people were forced to leave Vault 15 because of overcrowding.

I always thought all these things happened because the vaults weren't designed to work for more than a hundred of years, since there was no need for the vaults to last that long. It's just the vault dwellers got too comfy living in safety, and forgot about their main mission of emerging to the outside world and rebuilding the civilization.

I don't know if Fo1's designers did research on how much time must pass before you can start rebuild shit after the nuclear war, but let's assume they only used the common history and popular culture as their reference point. Japs started to rebuild Hiroshima and Nagasaki less than a decade after the bombings, and in "Dr. Strangelove" it was said that the Dead Hand cobalt bombs would render the surface world uninhabitable for mere 93 years.

Vault dwellers forfeiting their mission and deciding to live in vaults forever kinda plays into Fo1's theme of people forgetting the old world, forgetting the lessons learned, and repeating the same old mistakes. Surface dwellers banding together into gangs and quarrelling over bullshit, BoS turning into a reclusive quasi-religious organisation that hoards technology instead of using it for the benefit of mankind, etc etc.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

I think I get "their" point of view: game criticizes USA => USA is capitalistic state and capitalistic government => if you criticizing capitalistic state and capitalistic government you criticizing capitalism as well.

I kinda agree that business when get rich and influential enough inevitably influence government to make laws beneficial to itself (to business I mean), but saying that game that criticizing corrupt government also criticizing whole system is overwhelming.

[Metalhead33]

Given that capitalism is the dominant system that rules the world....

Technically, any critique of the way things are now could be considered a "critique of capitalism".

But that's just autistic reasoning. As usual, libs are just weaponizing "media literacy" (something that is complete bullshit and doesn't exist) to make themselves look/feel smart and their opposition look ignorant.

[Cogemeister]

In fallout new vegas New Californian Republic described as a corrupt state that cares about the welfare of arms companies, livestock farmers and merchant houses more than the state itself. Army is undersupplied and underequipped and can't fully protect the republic territory, especially usual citizens from gangs, especially near border. Constant seizure of territories they cannot control, almost no protection of trade routes mentioned in New Vegas many times.

Criticism of what is all this?

House is the capitalist libertarian in FNV, NCR is the corrupt corporate democracy.

Libertarianism would be one of, if not THE worst ideologies during a post apocalyptic hell on Earth.

[Red7]

capitalism is not dominant, fiat monetary religion is. or in another words central banking cartel rule is prevelant.

capitalism is hardly even meaningful concept except self interest i guess. they use it as ruse to say to retards "oh greed caused this and u cant fight greed, so just accept it also jewish bankers did nothing wrong, they gave u loan and u can take another loan to pay previous loan)

all that babble about different systems is kinda moot point at it misses core element; quality of niggers i mean citizens
u got bunch of niggers, non homogenic iq will lead to power concentration. too much concentration and it can get infiltrated or corrupted etc easily
most goy too retarded to even know money has no tangible definition (ergo being "black" magic system as soros wrote), fiat money does not even have abstract one.

house suppose to be benevolent monarch that dont even mentions unsustainable growth tendency that all retarded animals/niggers exhibit when given resources to multiply.
dont even mention way/plan to elevate peasants above negro level either
he does mention putting niggers in space tho

u cant twist whip from duck shit. u need to elevate niggers so they can engage in warfare (or at least be able to withdraw their support etc) or u end up with obscure, concentrated elite wars and u dont even know who is in charge.

as long as u got retards they will be harvested and weaponised by more or less benevolvent jews.
only answer/solution is we all must become jews.
or maybe not, its no fun being jew without slaves

[Acrux]

From MCA's review of the TV series:

[Vergil]

Are you shure? To me his very authoritarian.

Libertarianism is a transitional ideology like any other form of anarchism so it naturally turns into the natural state of creation (hierarchy) as the biggest warlord/CEO/whatever takes his place at the top.

[Vlajdimir Ermenović]

Per the 'classic' Fallouts: Capitalist USA was invaded by China. Capitalist USA repelled the Chinese forces and took the war to the heart of Beijing.
I can't remember which ones this came from: Capitalists essentially won the resource wars by inventing new energy technologies, namely, fusion power. Was this in the original Fallout games?

How is that a critique of capitalism?

Milennials love playing the vigilant mother that makes sure their baby only watches enriching cartoons, so they pin some flimsy meaning or social relevance to the games they play. They just don't see themselves as adult enough to allow themselves some occasional frivolity.

[Acrux]

Ugh, adulting is so hard, amiright?

[Vlajdimir Ermenović]

Ugh, adulting is so hard, amiright?

''Shut up mom! I'm not ''wasting time playing video games'', I'm absorbing high art! See, this evil wizard is a metaphor for like corrupt politicians or something, idk.''

[anonusername]

Per the 'classic' Fallouts: Capitalist USA was invaded by China. Capitalist USA repelled the Chinese forces and took the war to the heart of Beijing.
I can't remember which ones this came from: Capitalists essentially won the resource wars by inventing new energy technologies, namely, fusion power. Was this in the original Fallout games?

How is that a critique of capitalism?

It's because lots of communists are retarded, and the smart ones are all liars.

The fusion stuff was in the original fallout games as high-end batteries for energy weapons, power armor, and the car. The US winning the resource wars comes from the Fallout Bible, although it may also be mentioned in earlier developer notes or interviews:
2066 Summer Adding further insult to the Chinese-American relations, the first crude fusion cell is unveiled, one of the results of the Power Armor project. Devices designed for the fusion cell begin to be manufactured. Incorporating fusion power into the general US infrastructure begins, but the process is too slow to supply power to the regions that need it. Nearly eleven years later, few sections of the United States were supplied with fusion power.

The original Fallout lore seems to be that the capitalists discovered all the remaining oil deposits first, then invented fusion power when oil started to run low. The war happened because the US Government placed an embargo on China to prevent them buying any oil or fusion cores to avoid a recession during the switchover from oil to fusion, and also because they wanted to collapse China's economy to win the cold war without open conflict.

[Roguey]

Avellone claims that someone who I presume is Tim Cain himself told him that Fallout was never a critique of capitalism.

Good stuff. Bit off topic, but would I be correct in stating that you were surprised by the notion that "Fallout has always been a critique of capitalism" in terms of its premise? Just something minor that's been bothering me. Thanks.

Yeah, I asked the source. We didn't used to put agenda messages like that in our games back then, it's a more recent phenomenen. It's fine if Bethesda wants to, but it wasn't a theme for F1.