What is "Good itemization" to you?

[Tweed]

Designing games around cheaters is why we don't have fun in games anymore. Anything that could be trivially beaten through saving/reloading has been removed, because we have to cater to cheaters of course. How long until they just remove combat because of this? Oh wait, Disco Elysium…

Why play at all? Just install Progress Quest.

[Anon]

Btw I do get your point and diablo II itself sucks. My point is more about preferring an itemization that promotes adaptability and makes the game more unpredictable, rather than something you'll entirely metagame and be able to predict a build since character creation. Though I get why some people also enjoy this. I also hate infodump that looks lengthy, unnecessary.

[rusty_shackleford]

All I've been convinced of, over the course of the past decade or so, is that to make a good RPG you should be obfuscating the hell out of everything to prevent datamining. If it's an online game, everything must be on the server. If it's a single-player game, use multiple levels of obfuscation and encryption.
Styg was mostly right, except about his balance autism.

[Xenich]

Designing games around cheaters is why we don't have fun in games anymore. Anything that could be trivially beaten through saving/reloading has been removed, because we have to cater to cheaters of course. How long until they just remove combat because of this? Oh wait, Disco Elysium…

Why play at all? Just install Progress Quest.

The entire point is the game. A contest between the player and whatever obstacles are presented. Having to find out through play is a part of that process. Many old cRPGs didn't tell you every detail. Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Modern day gamers would go to a site where someone has already parsed out this information, loaded in the order of spells most effective for every encounter, designed the progression on multi-classing that is most optimal, etc.. People aren't playing a game when they do that, they are playing the game of another who did all the work to discover these facts.

So who is actually playing a game? The one who actually goes through that, or the one who is just punching in solutions from a hint site?

[Anon]

Designing games around cheaters is why we don't have fun in games anymore. Anything that could be trivially beaten through saving/reloading has been removed, because we have to cater to cheaters of course. How long until they just remove combat because of this? Oh wait, Disco Elysium…

Why play at all? Just install Progress Quest.

The entire point is the game. A contest between the player and whatever obstacles are presented. Having to find out through play is a part of that process. Many old cRPGs didn't tell you every detail. Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Modern day gamers would go to a site where someone has already parsed out this information, loaded in the order of spells most effective for every encounter, designed the progression on multi-classing that is most optimal, etc.. People aren't playing a game when they do that, they are playing the game of another who did all the work to discover these facts.

So who is actually playing a game? The one who actually goes through that, or the one who is just punching in solutions from a hint site?

Both tbh. I do get somebody not wanting to waste dozens or even hundreds of hours of gameplay in a doomed build because he hadn't any way to know his build sucked.

[Xenich]

Why play at all? Just install Progress Quest.

The entire point is the game. A contest between the player and whatever obstacles are presented. Having to find out through play is a part of that process. Many old cRPGs didn't tell you every detail. Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Modern day gamers would go to a site where someone has already parsed out this information, loaded in the order of spells most effective for every encounter, designed the progression on multi-classing that is most optimal, etc.. People aren't playing a game when they do that, they are playing the game of another who did all the work to discover these facts.

So who is actually playing a game? The one who actually goes through that, or the one who is just punching in solutions from a hint site?

Both tbh. I do get somebody not wanting to waste dozens or even hundreds of hours of gameplay in a doomed build because he hadn't any way to know his build sucked.

Which means they are more interested in how they win the game, than actually playing the game. That is, game play, what a game is... (ie taking ones own skills and ability and learning to overcome a given system) is not the point, it is taking another persons skill and ability (combined with fore knowledge) to do what? Beat the game in a way that is already established as the best way to beat it?

What is that old gamer term? "Get better scrub!"

edit: by the way, again... some of the most enjoyable games I have played are when I got myself into a pickle due to a bad choice in my build and had to come up with a clever way to overcome my choice. That in my opinion is the very essence of gaming.

[TKVNC]

Both tbh. I do get somebody not wanting to waste dozens or even hundreds of hours of gameplay in a doomed build because he hadn't any way to know his build sucked.

A lot of modern games have respec, or people have made mods to let you respec, so I feel like that's less of an issue outside of known shekel sinks like POE.

The problem is modern games are created to emulate films - they don't care for compelling mechanics, and the target audience doesn't care at all. Might as well turn them all into virtual novels or whatever, since that's basically all they are now.

[rusty_shackleford]

viewtopic.php?p=71123-last-epoch#p71123

This is possibly one of the worst things I've ever seen, thanks.

I could think of so many more interesting mechanics on just how to represent this item in the gameworld.
Various item lore skills that are difficult to level, requires trusting other players to be willing to tell the truth. Be able to attach personalized notes(with author's name) to an item. Creates a sense of community, well-known loremasters become trusted sources of information.

Of course, clickfest2 players aren't interested in actually playing an RPG, they want to play Number Goes Up.

[Tweed]

Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Actually they didn't, obfuscation of spell names and purpose were part of the copy protection and you were expected to look them up in the manual. See Wizardry and Ultima III-VI.

[Anon]

Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Actually they didn't, obfuscation of spell names and purpose were part of the copy protection and you were expected to look them up in the manual. See Wizardry and Ultima III-VI.

That's another point, what Xenich thinks was "obsfucating information so you need to play the game to uncover it" was actually that info being dumped in outside game manuals you were supposed to look.

[rusty_shackleford]

Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Actually they didn't, obfuscation of spell names and purpose were part of the copy protection and you were expected to look them up in the manual. See Wizardry and Ultima III-VI.

??
Ultima IV's Book of Mystic Wisdom is a perfect example of what he's referring to.


"at times"
"briefly"
etc.,

There's no flat numbers stating exactly what it does.

[rusty_shackleford]

"These are exactly the same, I can't tell the difference"

[Nammu Archag]

I like magic items that have simple and powerful effects that can benefit and/or harm you depending on how you use them.

This is generally the best in my mind too. Magic is something rare, powerful, and mystical, yet it ends up just being everywhere as if mass-produced and with random stat boosts.

Beyond magic items, I think the physical characteristics (weight, coverage, material, etc.) of items should determine their function. For example, say you have two chest pieces. They are both of the same levels of craftsmanship, and both incorporate the same materials such as steel into the design. One however offers a ton of protection covering your chest and back, sides, shoulders etc, yet weighs significantly more and inhibits dexterity/mobility. Meanwhile the other only uses a plate of steel to cover the front and back of your chest (ie your heart +lungs) and thus has way less coverage, yet you can more freely manipulate your limbs and weight. If a sword hits you in the chest, both are just as likely to stop it, but for those spots without, less so. Yet for the armor without, you can swing your sword harder/faster or potentially dodge with more ease.

The other aspect I think works well is having tools. These are items that don't stack and might require a skill to use, but as long as you hold it in on your person grants you aid towards a certain task. Like a crowbar improving your rolls on breaking open a door, thieves' tools helping with lockpicking, a scrying mirror helping you cast spells of a certain discipline with better efficiency, a lantern giving off light from a belt so you don't have to carry a torch, a holy book helping with or expanding the prayers of a cleric, the list goes on and gives you reason to spend your hard-earned coin.

[Tweed]

Yes, very nice strawman, well done.

[Xenich]

Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Actually they didn't, obfuscation of spell names and purpose were part of the copy protection and you were expected to look them up in the manual. See Wizardry and Ultima III-VI.

Ok, you are right about wizardry (been a while), but it was a range of damage for instance in Wiz 7, and the additional damage or strength was listed as a relative often to power level, so while some numbers, it wasn't exact and required play to understand how effective they might be in any given circumstance. The point is, it wasn't all spelled out for you, there was a lot of hidden aspects to their power and function.

[Xenich]

Spells often said what they did, but didn't tell you how much in detail until you used them in combat and even then it depended on circumstance as to how effective they were.

Actually they didn't, obfuscation of spell names and purpose were part of the copy protection and you were expected to look them up in the manual. See Wizardry and Ultima III-VI.

That's another point, what Xenich thinks was "obsfucating information so you need to play the game to uncover it" was actually that info being dumped in outside game manuals you were supposed to look.

Nope. Not the point.

[rusty_shackleford]

I'd even be entirely fine with the game telling you some of the numbers if it required certain skills to do so, related to whatever the current information pertains to.

[Anon]

Actually they didn't, obfuscation of spell names and purpose were part of the copy protection and you were expected to look them up in the manual. See Wizardry and Ultima III-VI.

That's another point, what Xenich thinks was "obsfucating information so you need to play the game to uncover it" was actually that info being dumped in outside game manuals you were supposed to look.

Nope. Not the point.

Wouldn't be the first time you've completely missed my point but alright, I'll take your word for it

[Xenich]

That's another point, what Xenich thinks was "obsfucating information so you need to play the game to uncover it" was actually that info being dumped in outside game manuals you were supposed to look.

Nope. Not the point.

Wouldn't be the first time you've completely missed my point but alright, I'll take your word for it

While I have been distracted, I think I answered above to Tweed that while he was correct in that they displayed damage range for damage spells, they weren't exact in all information. That is, relative to power level, etc... aren't exacts. How well a spell would work, or its successful function isn't outlined in detail, its a range and condition based on circumstance varies.

Many games did this and attached effectiveness and damage output based on variables. The "point" was that this is not the same as todays games which spend an enormous amount of time trying to detail every aspect of play in numbers to show literal results in their calculations.

Then there is the fact that a lot of items in older games weren't always clear as to exactly what they produced initially and depended on either additional concepts of identifying them to see additional effects and abilities.

That was my point on obfuscating a lot of the items information, especially as it concerned additional features was a component of play, not planning as is standard for games today.

[Anon]

I do think your points are reasonable.

More and more I'm reaching the conclusion of "I don't care, as long as the game is good I can put up with any itemization system"

[Gregz]

Designing games around cheaters is why we don't have fun in games anymore. Anything that could be trivially beaten through saving/reloading has been removed, because we have to cater to cheaters of course. How long until they just remove combat because of this? Oh wait, Disco Elysium…

Why play at all? Just install Progress Quest.

The bottom line is that rusty is a storyfag.

Grognard status: REVOKED

[Tweed]

Anyone else notice that devs seem to love obfuscation when the item in question is cursed?

[rusty_shackleford]

Designing games around cheaters is why we don't have fun in games anymore. Anything that could be trivially beaten through saving/reloading has been removed, because we have to cater to cheaters of course. How long until they just remove combat because of this? Oh wait, Disco Elysium…

Why play at all? Just install Progress Quest.

The bottom line is that rusty is a storyfag.

Grognard status: REVOKED

Progress Quest is a game for people like you, grogz. You hate RPGs, you just want to see big numbers.

IIRC, you're actually a fan of 'idler' style games which are all based on progress quest…

[Tweed]

Pulling back the lore curtain and exposing Rusty to numbers.

[aweigh]

Itemization doesn't exist in a vacuum. Good itemization is inextricably linked with good exploration and with a well-designed 'power curve'. The feeling of continually rising to meet the game's challenges, the growth in character ability and party potential to meet the more dangerous enemies and dungeons that lie ahead.

Good itemization is also inextricably linked with the game's character building: the classes and what they can use, the races and what their race can use, even their sex. This rewards different party compositions and makes items feel more unique.

Good itemization isn't just about a weapon having a cool effect, it's about how it dovetails with the game's other underlying systems and makes them shine.

You can already guess what game series I'm going to say fits the bill, but aside from Wizardry and Elminage: Gothic, a few others with good itemization that I can think of off the top of my head are Knights of the Chalice and Romancing SaGa 2. It's hard to think of examples on a whim.

EDIT: Coincidentally almost all of my examples are RPGs which blackbox the finer details of how things work, with the possible exception of Knights of the Chalice. Not sure what importance that may have.

[DemoGraph]

Itemization is a part of the character that is customisable on the go (in contrast to stats that are hard to alter). So it must provide useful, but limited options.
If itemization is the core game loop, then it's probably management sim or strategy or something not character-based.

[Tweed]

@rusty_shackleford there are entire builds in Median XL based around skills only granted by items, how does this make you feel?

[Vaako]

Best example are probably the seven mile boots in morrowind, they are super great and give you 200 speed and you can only get to 100 if you level up speed so the max would be 300 (unless you enchant more stuff with speed boosting not that its needed). You are really fast but the downsite is they break pretty fast in combat and you get blind which can be negated with magic resist when you equipe them. So that you can see something. In short I like overpowered stuff which makes for interesting builds but also has downsites you either must live with or you need to maybe equipe some other item or specc a certain ability/skill so that item is even useable without completly ruining your gameplay.

Baldurs Gate 3 had a few of these like water surface stuff which got electric when u wore certain boots add to that a ring which makes you resistant or imun to lightning damage. Diablo2 had similar builds where you also could equipe your mercs with op runeword weapons which gave you manareg, which would usually gimp your own char if only you can equipe that. Sadly most devs nowadays balance everything to death and make it boring. And most random loot is also really boring only recent game which did that good was borderlands3 maybe at least the legendary items had cool special effects.

[Decline]

Of course, clickfest2 players aren't interested in actually playing an RPG, they want to play Number Goes Up.

[junior]

Diablo 2 itemization is good if you play it in single player without OP runewords.