What is "Good itemization" to you?

[rusty_shackleford]

Creating this thread based on a discussion in another thread:

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I really hate Gloves of Hill Giant Strengthesque items. Super fucking boring and they're always best in slot. Boring boring boring.

I really hate Gloves of Hill Giant Strengthesque items. Super fucking boring and they're always best in slot. Boring boring boring.

I like these more than items that just give a bunch of stats, and every slot is some globohomo approved +str/dex/con/attack stat mix that appears in 90% of games.
In fact, I don't think I like gear giving stats much at all now that I think on it.

I really hate Gloves of Hill Giant Strengthesque items. Super fucking boring and they're always best in slot. Boring boring boring.

I like these more than items that just give a bunch of stats, and every slot is some globohomo approved +str/dex/con/attack stat mix that appears in 90% of games.
In fact, I don't think I like gear giving stats much at all now that I think on it.

The Pathfinder games gave up and started sticking bonus effects on top of the +6/+6/+6 items. Pretty cheesy, but better than just the numbers I guess.

I like these more than items that just give a bunch of stats, and every slot is some globohomo approved +str/dex/con/attack stat mix that appears in 90% of games.
In fact, I don't think I like gear giving stats much at all now that I think on it.

The Pathfinder games gave up and started sticking bonus effects on top of the +6/+6/+6 items. Pretty cheesy, but better than just the numbers I guess.

Amusing(due to the link to 3.5e) because I think Dungeons & Dragons Online has some of my favorite itemization. It does have (mostly) what you described above, but because each stat has its own type they don't stack.


(This is just a random item I grabbed off the wiki, it's presumably one of the most powerful gloves available)

Because the STR bonus is 'Enhancement', it won't stack with any other 'Enhancement' bonus towards STR. If you wanted to add more STR to your character, you would need to find an item with an Alchemical, Insight, etc., typed bonus towards STR. e.g., the +1 Insightful bonus from this bracer would stack with it as it's a different type of bonus:


My main issue here is DDO suffers from stat inflation at this point, but it is a very old game that has been going on for a long time.

So, what do you consider 'good itemization'? Has it been done? What games do you think get closest to your ideal?

---

I absolutely loathe randomized loot puke garbage, I'm now at the point where I mostly won't play games with this sort of itemization.

[GhostCow]

I like when numbers go up. I actually dislike the BG3 type itemization where most of the items are extremely situational. I know most people here probably consider that good, but it's very boring to me. I like for my items to improve in a way that helps in most or all situations.

[Anon]

It's hard to precisely explain, but it's a fact that I hate any kind of permanent stat increase, it removes the fun part of building and makes a lot of otherwise legit build choices pointless, like, why would you make an STR focused character if you'll have this amazing item that will set your STR at a point you'll never be able to naturally achieve? That also means newbies will also always necessarily be terrible at buildmaking because they'll require meta knowledge, so intelligence and gamesense are diminished and I also loathe that.

Considering I also hate crafting systems as I find them too grindy, clunky and dumb, I'll admit that I prefer diablo itemization system, where you'll get randomized loot and have to adapt to them as you get them. That means builds are way more flexible, make more sense, and will force you to use your intelligence to solve problems and adapt.

[Gregz]

viewtopic.php?p=71123-last-epoch#p71123

[GhostCow]

+stat items are good, but I dislike items that set a stat to a certain number. The one exception is the charisma ring from BG2 because Charisma isn't really useful outside of dialogue and it's nice to be able to just dump that stat.

[gerey]

Horizontal itemization - namely, no piece of equipment is obviously better than the other, they all have their specific uses and the player is encouraged to tailor their loadout based on what they are likely to face. Naturally, this would only apply for items of the same level of rarity/quality.

Only instance where this rule ought to be broken is when it comes to magical artefacts - each of them should be a game changer and thoroughly unique in how they function and what they bring to the table.

I also liked the concept behind potions, oils and bombs in the Witcher games, and really wish more (fantasy) RPGs would take cues from it. It's only natural that humans (or other sentient races) would research dangerous flora and fauna and develop methods to more effectively deal with them.

[BobT]

I like it when the stats actually boost the type of character/ play that I'm using.

Such as in WOW back in the day my items gave a small amount of magic damage, but then shitloads of FIRE damage, which went on my firemage. It felt a lot more custom to me.

Then they merged it to just all "magic" damage, and then damage lol. Lazy.
But yeah I like it where if I played a different character (even a different mage) I'd be wearing something completely different.

[Xenich]

I like items that can not be easily established to exactly what they do in terms of direct bonus and take parsing or extensive play to get a feel for their power. I also like items that have hidden curses that may contain a bonus, but also have negatives as some balancing to which the only way to truly determine them is via specialized spells/abilities and they can't be removed without such as well.

This way, there are risks, but also benefits in class/race makeups as well as the fact that you don't get side tracked on min/maxing every item to extremes.

[TKVNC]

You know, I was always a fan of how Morrowind did items.

Weapon Material and (presumably Smith capability) increases it's effectiveness, this is more or less paralel with real life. However, the extremes by which they increase (including weight is pretty ridiculous). With that in mind, the idea of random items or enchants such as they appear in Morrowind are also -ok- to me, since they're generally generic bonuses like Restore, or Resist - but they truly work since Enchanting is a mechanic.

The unique items there are also generally better, since Morrowind's stat system does not mean a Wizard using Fists of Randagulf will be as good as a Fighter who is using them - unlike the Hill Giant Strength in BG3.

But I have generally been a fan of horizontal progression more than vertical - though a mixed system is generally better, whereby you increase in potential to a point - but all the way you have sideways potential that unlocks too - for example Morrowind, a Daedric Claymore will do as much damage at Level 1 as at level 10, except for player stats. This way it rewards you both for character improvement, but also gear improvement.

Ultimately though the itemisation system reflects the game mechanics - or in an ideal world this would be true - and supports how you approach the game.

*Slight phrasing edit

[gerey]

Ultimately though the itemisation system reflects the game mechanics - or in an ideal world this would be true - and supports how you approach the game.

I generally prefer horizontal itemization because it cuts down on flooding the player with trash items.

Nothing more heartbreaking than seeing all the effort put into designing, coding, modeling, texturing, animating and writing up an item, only for me to chuck it at the nearest merchant for a pittance because it was either useless from the get go, or I already have something much better.

Witcher 3 keenly suffers from this problem, despite the fact that the game should actively encourage you to vary your loadouts as much as possible.

[Xenich]

You know, I was always a fan of how Morrowind did items.

Weapon Material and (presumably Smith capability) increases it's effectiveness, this is more or less paralel with real life. However, the extremes by which they increase (including weight is pretty ridiculous). With that in mind, the idea of random items or enchants such as they appear in Morrowind are also -ok- to me, since they're generally generic bonuses like Restore, or Resist - but they truly work since Enchanting is a mechanic.

The unique items there are also generally better, since Morrowind's stat system does not mean a Wizard using Fists of Randagulf will be as good as a Fighter who is using them - unlike the Hill Giant Strength in BG3.

But I have generally been a fan of horizontal progression more than vertical - though a mixed system is generally better, whereby you increase in potential to a point - but all the way you have sideways potential that unlocks too - for example Morrowind, a Daedric Claymore will do as much damage at Level 1 as at level 10, except for player stats. This way it rewards you both for character improvement, but also gear improvement.

Ultimately though the itemisation system reflects the game mechanics - or in an ideal world this would be true - and supports how you approach the game.

*Slight phrasing edit

Yea, I do like horizontal as well, but with a slight increasing curve on over all power itemization as you progress through the game. I would prefer to see basic concepts like weapon type and its effectiveness be brought back to the front of play (ie blunt, stabbing, slashing, etc...) where even a powerful weapon will be sub par in situations it is not physically designed for. A person with a dagger should be near useless against a skeleton and a mace should be ineffective on some types of creatures.

I really dislike crafting and I can't stand RNG loot. Everything should be hand placed and designed into the balance of encounters of the game and its locations. Finding a certain weapon in an area shouldn't just be a stat comparison to where people walk around with the min/maxed gear, but it should be a balance of decisions picking what works best in the given area and encounter. Choices should not simply be "what is best", rather "what is best at the moment".

As I said, remove showing stats completely, and focus on appearance, lore with hints at its abilities and strengths through books, dialogue, etc.. and require in some cases experimentation in use to open up understanding about a given item.

That would be my ideal itemization focus.

[Oyster Sauce]

I like unique effects that you play around. BG3 for example has an item that prevents slipping and gives you a bonus when you're standing on ice. But then it also has the 23 str item, which is objectively stronger and doesn't require you to be standing on ice (just an example, I don't remember what the ice item actually is).
If you're going to have the incredibly easy to acquire permanent 23 str gloves, the ice gloves should be more powerful when you fulfill the conditions for it to work.

[gerey]

I really dislike crafting and I can't stand RNG loot.

RNG loot is trash, but crafting, if designed to be like in Baldur's Gate 2, has its uses.

Then again, if part of the setting is resource scarcity and survival, then crating can also be used to help immerse the player more - though if it's handled like in Fallout games, where the whole mechanic is rendered useless by the overabundance of resources, then it does more harm than good.

[rusty_shackleford]

Unless there's a good reason for it, I hate the idea of my adventurer learning to be a skilled blacksmith or whatever. Employing one, finding rare resources for, making sure they have the tools they need, etc., I'm fine with.
Being a craftsman is a full-time trade that they devote their life to, not something you just do in your spare time.

[TKVNC]

Unless there's a good reason for it, I hate the idea of my adventurer learning to be a skilled blacksmith or whatever. Employing one, finding rare resources for, making sure they have the tools they need, etc., I'm fine with.
Being a craftsman is a full-time trade that they devote their life to, not something you just do in your spare time.

It's a good system, and Morrowind's Armourer skill I think reflects this line of thought better - you are adept at repairs, and maintenance, but not necessarily able to make armour from scratch.

*More typos

[gerey]

That's why I like how BG2 handled things. Your role in the crafting process, as an adventurer, is to find the necessary components and cough up the capital, while the true craftsman makes the item for you.

Not only is this a great hook to encourage players to go explore, but also an excellent money sink.

I'm amazed no other RPG has gone with this approach.

[J1M]

Horizontal progression is welcome as long as I don't need to keep 10 hats in my inventory.

If a game is going to insist on vertical progression (level up, get stronger) then I like when items that are direct replacements are clearly identified. Sword of Fire +2 works fine, but using materials like iron/silver/mithril is preferred.

I also prefer to have fewer more important choices than a loot pinata. Perhaps via having a few options in a tier, each with a negative status effect as well to further differentiate.

Constraints on which effects can appear in each slot is also helpful. It conveys a sense of structure and design countenance.

I also like set items... in theory. Usually it is too difficult to obtain them because the game has too much trash loot. The holy grail of itemization is something like WoW when you occasionally decide to forgo vertical progression items so you can continue to benefit from a set bonus on weaker items. Especially when you can mix a weaker 2-piece set bonus together with a new 2-piece set bonus for synergistic bonuses that eclipse the vertical progression or even the "best" 4-set bonus you have.

But for most games: delete all of the junk items, delete all crafting components, delete most equipment. I want a meaningful upgrade every hour or two, not a janitor simulator. It doesn't matter where the rat kept its gold.

[rusty_shackleford]

"horizontal progression" always makes me think of GW2 where nothing matters and gear might as well not exist
I don't want horizontal progression, I just want progression that's less-than-linear despite nearly all progression being exponential.

[Oyster Sauce]

That's why I like how BG2 handled things. Your role in the crafting process, as an adventurer, is to find the necessary components and cough up the capital, while the true craftsman makes the item for you.

Not only is this a great hook to encourage players to go explore, but also an excellent money sink.

I'm amazed no other RPG has gone with this approach.

I liked finding the plans for a powerful sounding weapon, seeking out the magical tree bark required to craft it, and receiving an absolute piece of shit after getting it made in BG3

[TKVNC]

I liked finding the plans for a powerful sounding weapon, seeking out the magical tree bark required to craft it, and receiving an absolute piece of shit after getting it made in BG3

The silence effect can be pretty good though. I recommend it highly against that POS Drider in Act 2.

[J1M]

"horizontal progression" always makes me think of GW2 where nothing matters and gear might as well not exist

With the loss of damage types, resistances, and immunities on enemies, the most basic form of horizontal progression is not really used anymore. For example, a ring that makes your spells deal frost damage (but without increasing their numerical power) and a cloak that cuts fire damage in half and now your party can do the fire elemental quest.

[rusty_shackleford]

viewtopic.php?p=71123-last-epoch#p71123

This is possibly one of the worst things I've ever seen, thanks.

[Xenich]

That's why I like how BG2 handled things. Your role in the crafting process, as an adventurer, is to find the necessary components and cough up the capital, while the true craftsman makes the item for you.

Not only is this a great hook to encourage players to go explore, but also an excellent money sink.

I'm amazed no other RPG has gone with this approach.

Many who are pushing mainstream design want their cake and eat it too, they don't really care about design, balance, and game play. They want to be a master at all trades, marksmen, sword master, and a the head of arcane arts. Choice isn't fun, having everything is!

[Xenich]

viewtopic.php?p=71123-last-epoch#p71123

This is possibly one of the worst things I've ever seen, thanks.

Thing is, you could have all that in the background engine and never tell the player it has any of that other than it is a rare item that has strange powers from an ancient lore.

[rusty_shackleford]

3.5e and its consequences have been a disaster for the RPG race

[Gregz]

3.5 is peak D&D for progression players.

[Tweed]

Thing is, you could have all that in the background engine and never tell the player it has any of that other than it is a rare item that has strange powers from an ancient lore.

Ambiguity in a multiplayer lootfest is a terrible idea.

[Dead]

viewtopic.php?p=71123-last-epoch#p71123

This is possibly one of the worst things I've ever seen, thanks.

How is it the worst thing you've seen?

[rusty_shackleford]

viewtopic.php?p=71123-last-epoch#p71123

This is possibly one of the worst things I've ever seen, thanks.

How is it the worst thing you've seen?

You wouldn't get it.

[Xenich]

Thing is, you could have all that in the background engine and never tell the player it has any of that other than it is a rare item that has strange powers from an ancient lore.

Ambiguity in a multiplayer lootfest is a terrible idea.

Depends on taste in play. EQ had a lot of ambiguity in the power of various items that took a lot of parsing to figure out specifics, and yet it was one of the most enjoyable MMOs I can remember playing.

I was thinking more for single play, but I don't personally see the issue with multiplayer having such. Usually this is an issue for people need to know every single micro level increase to min/max their performance and don't want to deal with the ambiguity.