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Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 23:27

Someone, for God's sake, tell that even fairytales have rules and restrictions for story that they tell work and make sense.

They did, it was AD&D. That was the goal of Gygax, to bring about structure to the world to avoid the non-sensical aspect of play. Note he didn't say people were bad if they choose the D&D route (less structured rough draft of the game they first created), which left the rules and structure completely open to the GM and players. For instance, he described how D&D games would often allow for players to suddenly make up things as they played "calling down their god to aid them" or proclaiming some sudden magical means to avoid or aid them in a conflict.

AD&D was created for the crowds who had played the board and scenario based games which were statistical and relevant to a structure because they didn't care for the make-believe made up play that often came with the original release of D&D.

Over the years AD&D was the base game that excelled and became well known while D&D faded off into various sub groups of lesser circles of play. Most systems you see in the cRPG genre are based on directly or loosely to AD&D style and structure.

The problem is that over time, people who were not of the original type (ie the statistical/structure) began to play video games and they started to demand more loosely implemented systems, with less structure and adherence to a realism of play in the world. Games became about "fun" over what a game is, and this slowly changed the industries to where they are now (even having AD&D become more D&D again as a loose less structured system).

Now, if you try to explain the basis of why dwarfs can't be magic users, or why people can't swim in plate mail, or many other means of structure, they simply argue with the points of "cuz magic!" and like the original D&D players, see nothing wrong with conflicting systems and structure. After all, its a fantasy and about fun right? /sigh

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 13:47

even having AD&D become more D&D again as a loose less structured system

You mean AD&D 2nd edition?

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 13:59

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 13:47

even having AD&D become more D&D again as a loose less structured system

You mean AD&D 2nd edition?

No, AD&D from its inception. Read the foreword by Gygax in the original AD&D 1st edition DM Guide, read his articles in Dragon Magazine. AD&D as a system was created specifically by Gygax branching off from Arneson who he co-authored D&D with. AD&D over time adjusted, but its goals were the same. You can see this approach when you read the DM guide which goes into things like the statistical methodology (bell curve distributions), Terminal velocity, etc.. and numerous rules and structure on races, alignments, as well as the limitations between class selection.

Edit: (sorry, went off on a tangent)

5th edition is more of what I meant though on becoming loose in what is accepted and allowed in play that were previously designed structures.

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 14:09

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 13:59

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 13:47

even having AD&D become more D&D again as a loose less structured system

You mean AD&D 2nd edition?

No, AD&D from its inception. Read the foreword by Gygax in the original AD&D 1st edition DM Guide, read his articles in Dragon Magazine. AD&D as a system was created specifically by Gygax branching off from Arneson who he co-authored D&D with. AD&D over time adjusted, but its goals were the same. You can see this approach when you read the DM guide which goes into things like the statistical methodology (bell curve distributions), Terminal velocity, etc.. and numerous rules and structure on races, alignments, as well as the limitations between class selection.

Edit: (sorry, went off on a tangent)

5th edition is more of what I meant though on becoming loose in what is accepted and allowed in play that were previously designed structures.

What about 3rd and 4th editions? Are they somehow related to AD&D?

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 15:34

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 14:09

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 13:59

You mean AD&D 2nd edition?

No, AD&D from its inception. Read the foreword by Gygax in the original AD&D 1st edition DM Guide, read his articles in Dragon Magazine. AD&D as a system was created specifically by Gygax branching off from Arneson who he co-authored D&D with. AD&D over time adjusted, but its goals were the same. You can see this approach when you read the DM guide which goes into things like the statistical methodology (bell curve distributions), Terminal velocity, etc.. and numerous rules and structure on races, alignments, as well as the limitations between class selection.

Edit: (sorry, went off on a tangent)

5th edition is more of what I meant though on becoming loose in what is accepted and allowed in play that were previously designed structures.

What about 3rd and 4th editions? Are they somehow related to AD&D?

(Edit clarifying: meant, more related to D&D, not AD&D, sorry for the confusion, 4th and 5th are basically of the same vein, 3rd changed a lot of things, but shared more in common with 2nd than the others, but it had some radical changes)

4th certainly, 3rd and 3.5 got crazy in combinations of trying to be complex, but a watering down the structure, so yes.. I would likely say that as well though it has been a long while since I have looked into the details of them (I always stuck with 1st/2nd editions tailored to more extremes in the worlds physics and rules). I would have to go look at the DM guides in detail to discuss the points though.

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 15:42

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 15:34

Xenich wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 14:09

No, AD&D from its inception. Read the foreword by Gygax in the original AD&D 1st edition DM Guide, read his articles in Dragon Magazine. AD&D as a system was created specifically by Gygax branching off from Arneson who he co-authored D&D with. AD&D over time adjusted, but its goals were the same. You can see this approach when you read the DM guide which goes into things like the statistical methodology (bell curve distributions), Terminal velocity, etc.. and numerous rules and structure on races, alignments, as well as the limitations between class selection.

Edit: (sorry, went off on a tangent)

5th edition is more of what I meant though on becoming loose in what is accepted and allowed in play that were previously designed structures.

What about 3rd and 4th editions? Are they somehow related to AD&D?

(Edit clarifying: meant, more related to D&D, not AD&D, sorry for the confusion, 4th and 5th are basically of the same vein, 3rd changed a lot of things, but shared more in common with 2nd than the others, but it had some radical changes)

4th certainly, 3rd and 3.5 got crazy in combinations of trying to be complex, but a watering down the structure, so yes.. I would likely say that as well though it has been a long while since I have looked into the details of them (I always stuck with 1st/2nd editions tailored to more extremes in the worlds physics and rules). I would have to go look at the DM guides in detail to discuss the points though.

It is very sad that AD&D never translated to my language. Im still don't know english good enough to read rulebooks/corebooks.

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 19:34

It is very sad that AD&D never translated to my language. Im still don't know english good enough to read rulebooks/corebooks.

To be fair, Gygax used a lot of words that were uncommon even when he wrote it. e.g., I don't think I encountered the term 'milieu' prior to Gygax's work, nor again after. He made heavy usage of dictionaries.

As an example,
https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2020/09 ... ht-me.html

Many words that see a lot of usage in fantasy RPGs(and sometimes escape from there even) now are due to Gygax popularizing them.

@WhiteShark, @rusty_shackleford On the other hand, none of us were going to call each other online by skype or discord and play AD&D, so me not be able to read AD&D in not a big problem. Lorewise, i will believe your clippings from rulebooks/corebooks.

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 19:37

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 19:34

It is very sad that AD&D never translated to my language. Im still don't know english good enough to read rulebooks/corebooks.

To be fair, Gygax used a lot of words that were uncommon even when he wrote it. e.g., I don't think I encountered the term 'milieu' prior to Gygax's work, nor again after. He made heavy usage of dictionaries.

As an example,
https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2020/09 ... ht-me.html

Many words that see a lot of usage in fantasy RPGs(and sometimes escape from there even) now are due to Gygax popularizing them.

My favorite has to be "agathokakological" meaning "composed of both darkness and light". I believe it came from Lejendary Journeys.

Acrux wrote: ↑ March 20th, 2024, 20:29

My favorite has to be "agathokakological" meaning "composed of both darkness and light".

Look at this false fan of agathokakological...

agathokakological, adj.
Composed of both good and evil.

That's my fault for acting like a liberal and not translating literally.