Baldur's Gate 3 isn't an RPG

[Nammu Archag]

If it doesn't have a goal, it's not even a game, let alone a roleplaying game. The basic unit of an RPG is the campaign and, just as in a military campaign, there must be a goal. In tabletop it's possible that the party accomplishes, fails, or abandons its goal and finds a new one, but in a cRPG it's hard to be so open-ended and still have a cohesive and entertaining game.

1) Are sandbox RPGs like Kenshi, Soulash, mount and blade warband, etc, not RPGs because they don't feature a main quest?

I assume the implicit goal in those games is to conquer the world.

Not really. It's not possible in Kenshi, and I've never actually played a single warband campaign long enough to conquer everything. Soulash is also kinda vague

[WhiteShark]

Not really. It's not possible in Kenshi, and I've never actually played a single warband campaign long enough to conquer everything. Soulash is also kinda vague

Ok, then what do you work toward while playing those games?

[rusty_shackleford]

kenshi is a simulator, not a game. RPS.

[ArcaneLurker]

Not really. It's not possible in Kenshi, and I've never actually played a single warband campaign long enough to conquer everything. Soulash is also kinda vague

Ok, then what do you work toward while playing those games?

The focus is on the progression of the character, troops, base, even if the goal isn't to conquer the whole map-- there's no narrative there.

[Irenaeus]

Haven't read much of the thread (half of the first page) but I'll support anything that shits on Baldur's Gay 3

[Nammu Archag]

Not really. It's not possible in Kenshi, and I've never actually played a single warband campaign long enough to conquer everything. Soulash is also kinda vague

Ok, then what do you work toward while playing those games?

Depends on the character I'm playing. In Kenshi usually something like becoming a samurai, a member of the traders guild, a homesteader, a ninja gang leader, a tech hunter, etc

[Nammu Archag]

kenshi is a simulator, not a game. RPS.

alright so not only is the definition of RPG is flawed but so is the definition of game as well

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Gothic II: Night of the Raven
...
I won't say anything, check it out for yourselves

I tried this, keyboard control is so bad that I don't know words that would describe how awful it is.

[rusty_shackleford]

Okay, oldfags, tell us, newfags, what RPG or "true RPG" means and give us example of "true rpg".

It's a well known fact that Ultima IV is the first RPG ever made.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

kenshi is a simulator, not a game. RPS.

alright so not only is the definition of RPG is flawed but so is the definition of game as well

I think this all this is trolling. The usual "you don't know what are you talking about, I know exactly what is it about but I won't explain you because I'm so edgy and special."

[rusty_shackleford]

kenshi is a simulator, not a game. RPS.

alright so not only is the definition of RPG is flawed but so is the definition of game as well

I think this all this is trolling. The usual "you don't know what are you talking about, I know exactly what is it about but I won't explain you because I'm so edgy and special."

Kenshi doesn't have a win condition therefore it's not a game.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Okay, oldfags, tell us, newfags, what RPG or "true RPG" means and give us example of "true rpg".

It's a well known fact that Ultima IV is the first RPG ever made.

Can you explain what makes it RPG/true RPG?

[Oldtimer]

A debate on what an RPG is - what the hell, do I have to explain what a woman is as well?

Ok, an RPG is a game where you take a role within an imaginary world with whatever limitations are set by the game system - in a fantasy setting chances are you can't play as a space marine. The setting also limits how big the game world is - it can stretch over an entire universe to just a city, again, depending on the setting.

However, one thing that further limits the scope of the game is the technical aspect when it comes to cRPGs - ie, you can't have a bigger game than a computer can handle, something that is not an issue with old-school PnP RPGs, where the gamemaster can allow your fantasy elven paladin to go to space, no problem.

Another aspect with cRPGs is that they are built more or less like corridors - you can enter certain rooms along the corridor, but you will eventually return to the corridor and move along it, something you don't really have in PnP - if a player decides he wants to go to space, only the gamemaster can really stop him, no matter the setting - in a cRPG however, the option to go to space in say Skyrim can never even be brought up.

The character you play is most often free to choose - race, class, skills, whatever, but in some cases you are given a character and play as that - case in point, Geralt of Rivia from The Witcher or Lee Everett from The Walking Dead Season 1 (highly recommended), which limits the scope of the game. This is not something that I think is very common in PnP games since players would get livid if they didn't get to roll up their own character.

Finally, there are goals in most games - in PnP these can be set by the players, but in cRPGs the goals are given: go there, do this, kill that. Again, this is a consequence of the technical aspect: a computer game must limit the choices you have: here is a dragon, kill it and you'll be done and can cash in loot and XP. In a PnP however, you can take any kind of solution to the dragon problem you want: woo it, persuade it to kill itself, make the ceiling cave in, whatever you can think of.

All of this does not determine the quality of the game - it is the story being told (either by the game (cRPG) or the players (PnP) that sets that - if you have fun then its a good game.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

A debate on what an RPG is - what the hell, do I have to explain what a woman is as well?

Ok, an RPG is a game where you take a role within an imaginary world with whatever limitations are set by the game system - in a fantasy setting chances are you can't play as a space marine. The setting also limits how big the game world is - it can stretch over an entire universe to just a city, again, depending on the setting.

However, one thing that further limits the scope of the game is the technical aspect when it comes to cRPGs - ie, you can't have a bigger game than a computer can handle, something that is not an issue with old-school PnP RPGs, where the gamemaster can allow your fantasy elven paladin to go to space, no problem.

Another aspect with cRPGs is that they are built more or less like corridors - you can enter certain rooms along the corridor, but you will eventually return to the corridor and move along it, something you don't really have in PnP - if a player decides he wants to go to space, only the gamemaster can really stop him, no matter the setting - in a cRPG however, the option to go to space in say Skyrim can never even be brought up.

The character you play is most often free to choose - race, class, skills, whatever, but in some cases you are given a character and play as that - case in point, Geralt of Rivia from The Witcher or Lee Everett from The Walking Dead Season 1 (highly recommended), which limits the scope of the game. This is not something that I think is very common in PnP games since players would get livid if they didn't get to roll up their own character.

Finally, there are goals in most games - in PnP these can be set by the players, but in cRPGs the goals are given: go there, do this, kill that. Again, this is a consequence of the technical aspect: a computer game must limit the choices you have: here is a dragon, kill it and you'll be done and can cash in loot and XP. In a PnP however, you can take any kind of solution to the dragon problem you want: woo it, persuade it to kill itself, make the ceiling cave in, whatever you can think of.

All of this does not determine the quality of the game - it is the story being told (either by the game (cRPG) or the players (PnP) that sets that - if you have fun then its a good game.

Well, if you read previous messages in this topic, you will find out that you are wrong and story doesn't matter. So, you wrong, welcome to the club.

[rusty_shackleford]

in a cRPG however, the option to go to space in say Skyrim can never even be brought up.

The construction kit is part of TES, the characters acknowledge it exists.
I'm not quite sure if any other game has been so meta, at least not any mainstream game.

[Metalhead33]

_{Now to be serious for a moment, what OP is asking for is not an RPG, but some sort of life simulator. And such a game already exists: The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall Most players straight-up ignore the main quest in it..}

[Nammu Archag]

in a cRPG however, the option to go to space in say Skyrim can never even be brought up.

The construction kit is part of TES, the characters acknowledge it exists.
I'm not quite sure if any other game has been so meta, at least not any mainstream game.

this is canon btw

[SoLong]

Baldur's Gate 3 claims to be all about 'player choice' but where it matters, provides basically none.

You cannot 'roleplay' outside of the context of the main quest because the main quest dominates everything about your character story.

You are forcibly infested.

You are going to die.

You must save everyone.

It's so hilarious to observe AAA studios try to make RPGs and market themselves on player choice, then immediately limit their players to what is basically rails with minor deviations.

No unique starting locations based on race

No factions

No ability to avoid the main quest (you'll die)

I think it's just painfully clear that the standards for RPG and choice have fallen so far, that the definition now seems lost on everyone.

Skyrim isn't and RPG either btw.

What a confused take.

Do you know what RPG stands for? It's role playing game. You're supposed to play a role and last I checked people don't get to decide the broad strokes of a RPG any more than an actor gets to decide the trajectory of his character.

You seem to think that RPGs are wide open sandboxes or Choose Your Own Adventure games where you can do whatever. No.

[Oldtimer]

Baldur's Gate 3 claims to be all about 'player choice' but where it matters, provides basically none.

You cannot 'roleplay' outside of the context of the main quest because the main quest dominates everything about your character story.

You are forcibly infested.

You are going to die.

You must save everyone.

It's so hilarious to observe AAA studios try to make RPGs and market themselves on player choice, then immediately limit their players to what is basically rails with minor deviations.

No unique starting locations based on race

No factions

No ability to avoid the main quest (you'll die)

I think it's just painfully clear that the standards for RPG and choice have fallen so far, that the definition now seems lost on everyone.

Skyrim isn't and RPG either btw.

What a confused take.

Do you know what RPG stands for? It's role playing game. You're supposed to play a role and last I checked people don't get to decide the broad strokes of a RPG any more than an actor gets to decide the trajectory of his character.

You seem to think that RPGs are wide open sandboxes or Choose Your Own Adventure games where you can do whatever. No.

Which is what I said, and apparently I'm wrong...

[pieface]

What a confused take.

Do you know what RPG stands for? It's role playing game. You're supposed to play a role and last I checked people don't get to decide the broad strokes of a RPG any more than an actor gets to decide the trajectory of his character.

You seem to think that RPGs are wide open sandboxes or Choose Your Own Adventure games where you can do whatever. No.

WHAT DONT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND

ROLE. PLAYING. GAME

I CANNOT PLAY. A. ROLE. OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE MAIN QUEST, THEREFORE, WHAT USE IS IT AS A ROLEPLAYING GAME?

IT IS A NARROW, SHALLOW GAME, WHERE ONE CANNOT ASSUME A ROLE, AND PLAY, BECAUSE THE ONLY ROLES AVAILABLE TO YOU ARE INFESTED GAY BITCH

YOU DESCRIBE A CRUDE DRAWING OF A CAR AS A 'CAR', BUT YOU CANNOT DRIVE IT

YOUR STANDARDS OF RPG ARE SO FUCKING DOGWATER LOW YOU CANNOT EVEN FATHOM WHAT TRUE IMMERSION LOOKS LIKE INSIDE YOUR HEADS

[rusty_shackleford]

roleplaying does not mean theater

[Vergil]

I CANNOT PLAY. A. ROLE. OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE MAIN QUEST, THEREFORE, WHAT USE IS IT AS A ROLEPLAYING GAME?

"I cannot play a role outside of the role I am playing as!!!!"
Do you realize how you sound right now? RPG does not mean autistic life sim and none of the fundamental pillars of the genre or any of the foundational entries in the genre conform to your retarded rules as to what an RPG should be which appears to be GTA Online but instead of heists and crime you need to make sure your character's piss and shit gauge is depleted before you go to your virtual job at McDonalds because that's fully immersive.

[SoLong]

WHAT DONT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND

ROLE. PLAYING. GAME

I CANNOT PLAY. A. ROLE. OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE MAIN QUEST, THEREFORE, WHAT USE IS IT AS A ROLEPLAYING GAME?

IT IS A NARROW, SHALLOW GAME, WHERE ONE CANNOT ASSUME A ROLE, AND PLAY, BECAUSE THE ONLY ROLES AVAILABLE TO YOU ARE INFESTED GAY BITCH

YOU DESCRIBE A CRUDE DRAWING OF A CAR AS A 'CAR', BUT YOU CANNOT DRIVE IT

YOUR STANDARDS OF RPG ARE SO FUCKING DOGWATER LOW YOU CANNOT EVEN FATHOM WHAT TRUE IMMERSION LOOKS LIKE INSIDE YOUR HEADS

The fact that no RPG has ever actually conformed to your retarded standards for one! So by all rights the genre has no actual examples or you're a retard. Can you guess which of these two positions is more likely?

Also stop yelling retard.

[pieface]

"I cannot play a role outside of the role I am playing as!!!!"
Do you realize how you sound right now? RPG does not mean autistic life sim and none of the fundamental pillars of the genre or any of the foundational entries in the genre conform to your retarded rules as to what an RPG should be which appears to be GTA Online but instead of heists and crime you need to make sure your character's piss and shit gauge is depleted before you go to your virtual job at McDonalds because that's fully immersive.

Main quests are antithetical to RPGs. You have not offered a SINGLE counterpoint to this, you just post random, irrelevant bullshit or ad hominem

[pieface]

The fact that no RPG has ever actually conformed to your retarded standards for one! So by all rights the genre has no actual examples or you're a retard. Can you guess which of these two positions is more likely?

Also stop yelling retard.

Yes because nobody has made one yet.

I will have to because the rest of the world is so incompetent

[Vergil]

Yes because nobody has made one yet.

Alright decent troll you baited me.

[pieface]

Alright decent troll you baited me.

When i release it you'll play it 24/7 and coom over it like the consoomer you are

[Xenich]

While a lot of systems will overlap making it confusing as to the labeling of the game, ultimately I think it is more about the "game" than it is about "play acting" Both are needed, but remove one, and only one of them is still a game.

LARPing is play acting, not a game which is why I really dislike it when people try to remove the "game" out of the "game" in order to essentially create some free for all "play acting". Kind of why I dislike the focus of Larian with all of its "play acting sex sim" crap being its real interest, while the game play suffers. You could remove most of the game elements out of BG3 and the people raving about it would still love it because they are simply looking for another Asian Sex Simulator.

[BobT]

What a confused take.

Do you know what RPG stands for? It's role playing game. You're supposed to play a role and last I checked people don't get to decide the broad strokes of a RPG any more than an actor gets to decide the trajectory of his character.

You seem to think that RPGs are wide open sandboxes or Choose Your Own Adventure games where you can do whatever. No.

WHAT DONT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND

ROLE. PLAYING. GAME

I CANNOT PLAY. A. ROLE. OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE MAIN QUEST, THEREFORE, WHAT USE IS IT AS A ROLEPLAYING GAME?

IT IS A NARROW, SHALLOW GAME, WHERE ONE CANNOT ASSUME A ROLE, AND PLAY, BECAUSE THE ONLY ROLES AVAILABLE TO YOU ARE INFESTED GAY BITCH

YOU DESCRIBE A CRUDE DRAWING OF A CAR AS A 'CAR', BUT YOU CANNOT DRIVE IT

YOUR STANDARDS OF RPG ARE SO FUCKING DOGWATER LOW YOU CANNOT EVEN FATHOM WHAT TRUE IMMERSION LOOKS LIKE INSIDE YOUR HEADS

lol I guess the "role play" bit is where people "create their character" and "play it a certain way", on top of being an infested gay bitch.

Such as "This character is a sharp-tongued fancy-looking bard who talks his way out of difficult situations wherever possible".
or
"This character is a big, beefy, brick shithouse who's dumb as shit and gets into fights all the time, even when it could be avoided, but that's ok as he's strong and punches things".

bla bla bla.
Yes you're stuck to the overarching main plot, but do get some freedom of how you play your OWN character within that. I guess even the tabletop stuff usually sticks to a "main plot" even if the DM allows some freedom within.

[WhiteShark]

Even tableotp D&D has initial setting contrivances. For one, you must play the sort of game the GM and your fellow players wish to, so you'll probably be 'forced' to play as an adventurer and not as a farmer or craftsman. You'll be 'forced' to play in the world the GM invents. If you decide partway through you want to be a bank robber and not a dungeon delver, then in most campaigns your character will be 'forced' to retire because the game is about dungeon delving and not bank robbery. RPG does not equate to total freedom. If I had to define RPG concisely, it would be something like this: "Wargame in which one character serves as your avatar by whom you interact with an imaginary world that responds reasonably to your actions."