Nintendo is suing the creators of popular Switch emulator Yuzu

[Segata]

https://twiitter.com/stephentotilo/stat ... 58987082#m



Bleem! part two. Let's see how it unfolds.

[WhiteShark]

"Nintendo Switch games, which Nintendo authorizes for play solely on Nintendo Switch consoles,"
>you are only allowed to use our products exactly as we prescribe
The implications of that are absurd. Total nonsense. I hope the court sentences Nintendo to death.

[rusty_shackleford]

didn't nintendo already lose this battle in the 90s

[Nammu Archag]

Is Yuzu really based out of America?

[WhiteShark]

Is Yuzu really based out of America?

It would seem so.

[Xenich]

I think they have to legitimately show damages don't they?

The fact that a bunch of people may have pirated the game and played it on their emulator does not translate to those same people buying the game if they didn't have an option to pirate it. In fact, there was a study done a while ago that showed that the bulk of those who pirate these games would not have ever purchased the game if they had no avenue to pirate it, meaning their is no lost revenue.

edit:
This of course doesn't even get into the area of them not actually providing pirating games, and someone could very legitimately copy their own copy over, crack it and put it into their own library (I have done this personally).

Also, I think a recent case with John Deer shows that they had no legal standing or ownership of the code in their tractors once it was purchased and users could do whatever they wanted with the product (ie upgrading the software to be like more expensive models).

[Vergil]

As long as they aren't distributing Nintendo's intellectual property themselves there's nothing that can really be done to them right? People hosting the games can easily be DMCA'd but this is just a program to run the games and even requires you to dump certain files from an actual switch or download them somewhere, but not from Yuzu themselves to work right? Not attracted to children so I don't have much experience with Nintendo stuff honestly.

[Xenich]

"Nintendo Switch games, which Nintendo authorizes for play solely on Nintendo Switch consoles,"
>you are only allowed to use our products exactly as we prescribe
The implications of that are absurd. Total nonsense. I hope the court sentences Nintendo to death.

That has already been remedied with previous cases, they have no standing.

[Xenich]

As long as they aren't distributing Nintendo's intellectual property themselves there's nothing that can really be done to them right? People hosting the games can easily be DMCA'd but this is just a program to run the games and even requires you to dump certain files from an actual switch or download them somewhere, but not from Yuzu themselves to work right? Not attracted to children so I don't have much experience with Nintendo stuff honestly.

Technically, no.. but lets be honest, with the shit show going on in the legal system concerning a lot of political cases where they are blatantly (judge and prosecutor) ignoring the law, would it be a surprise of some how they magically got a ruling defying all legal means that sides with them?

Jew don't live in free country, Jew might think you do, but someone else controls it. If Jew only knew who did, maybe we could resolve these issues, don't jew think so?.

[aweigh]

love making nintendies seethe with Yuzu.

[Shillitron]

Why did Ryujinx get off scott free? Is it because it's open source and so there's no money to bilk?


The emulators are playing by the unspoken rule that users need to supply the Keys / BIOS / Firmware / Whatever-The-Fuck-Proprietary-Thingy that allegedly needs to be dumped from your console. This has been standard practice going back to PS1 emulators.

AFAIK that requirement means they aren't trampling any IP laws and since their code is written from scratch it's also safe. Japanese Copyright laws are fucking insane and super anti-consumer in favor of the megacorps - and I think Nintendo forgets that sometimes when suing people in other countries?

Although, to play devil's advocate.. it amazes me that Blizzard can sue bot creators .. when their source is all originally written and just automates playing a game.. they aren't doing anything a player can't do.. how is that lawsuit worthy? I guess any company can sue you if they can construct some larp about "damages".

[rusty_shackleford]

Although, to play devil's advocate.. it amazes me that Blizzard can sue bot creators .. when their source is all originally written and just automates playing a game.. they aren't doing anything a player can't do.. how is that lawsuit worthy?

AFAIK Because they have to agree to a contract to not reverse engineer the game to play it, which they violated. WoW can't be reverse engineered without actually connecting to the game servers.

[Shillitron]

Although, to play devil's advocate.. it amazes me that Blizzard can sue bot creators .. when their source is all originally written and just automates playing a game.. they aren't doing anything a player can't do.. how is that lawsuit worthy?

AFAIK Because they have to agree to a contract to not reverse engineer the game to play it, which they violated. WoW can't be reverse engineered without actually connecting to the game servers.

Are TOS admissible in court for lawsuits like that?

I thought a TOS is only a legal contract that allows Blizzard to revoke your use of their system without you having any legal recourse to hit back at them for denial of service of a product you paid for.

[KnightoftheWind]

So long as Yuzu isn't using copyrighted Nintendo code in their emulator, there really isn't anything Nintendo can do. Emulation is perfectly legal. If Yuzu is doing something illicit, then Nintendo might have a case, otherwise it's just plain bullying.

[Nammu Archag]

Honestly I think Yuzu is fucked. Why they don't host this in an actually free country idk, especially one that doesn't give a shit about Japanese law given that they are making an emulator for the most rabid copyrighter in industry. It's within Nintendo's terms not to mess with their proprietary software/hardware, which is pretty standard in tech. Team Yuzu would have had to mess with it to bypass security measures when creating the emulator. And it's likely they did this illegally as well since Nintendo definitely didn't give them the keys necessary. I am pretty sure Nintendo has existing precedents on their side as well like the Gary Bowser case who now owes Nintendo millions for selling switches with modified software.

[rusty_shackleford]

Although, to play devil's advocate.. it amazes me that Blizzard can sue bot creators .. when their source is all originally written and just automates playing a game.. they aren't doing anything a player can't do.. how is that lawsuit worthy?

AFAIK Because they have to agree to a contract to not reverse engineer the game to play it, which they violated. WoW can't be reverse engineered without actually connecting to the game servers.

Are TOS admissible in court for lawsuits like that?

I thought a TOS is only a legal contract that allows Blizzard to revoke your use of their system without you having any legal recourse to hit back at them for denial of service of a product you paid for.

Here's the motion for default judgment filed by blizzard, which was granted:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 2.31.0.pdf
A quick peruse suggests the main difference between honorbuddy(the bot) and an emulator is an emulator has a significant purpose other than piracy.

The Bossland Hacks have no commercially significant purpose or use
other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to
copyrighted work and that protects the exclusive rights of a copyright owner.
Compl., ¶ 54; MDY Indus., 629 F.3d at 953 (software bot had no purpose other
than to facilitate the playing of an online computer game).
Bossland markets the Bossland Hacks with knowledge of their use to
circumvent Blizzard’s technological access controls and copyright protection.
Compl., ¶ 55.
● As a result of the foregoing, Bossland is offering to the public,
providing, or otherwise trafficking in technology in violation of 17 U.S.C.
§ 1201(a)(2).

With regards to my prior post:

Copyright Infringement. As the owner of the copyright in the Blizzard
Games (Compl., ¶ 9), Blizzard possesses the exclusive rights to, among other
things, reproduce the Blizzard Games, distribute the Blizzard Games, and create
derivative works of (i.e., adapt) the Blizzard Games. 17 U.S.C. § 106(1), (2), (3).
Blizzard has sufficiently alleged that the creation, distribution, and use of the
Bossland Hacks infringes Blizzard’s copyright in a number of ways, and that
Bossland is secondarily liable for each of those acts of infringement under theories
of inducement to infringe copyrights, contributory infringement, and vicarious
infringement.
First, in order to create, improve, test, and maintain the Bossland Hacks,
Bossland employees (or freelance hackers retained by Bossland) fraudulently
obtained access to Blizzard’s software clients for each of the Blizzard Games.
Compl., ¶¶ 41-43. Once in possession of Blizzard’s copyrighted software code for
the Blizzard Games, Bossland or those acting on its behalf engaged in acts of
unauthorized reproduction, adaptation, and/or distribution of Blizzard’s games as
part of the process by which they created and/or maintained the Bossland Hacks.
For example, to build the Bossland Hacks, individuals working on behalf of
Bossland loaded the Blizzard Games onto their personal computers and then used
third party software to either obtain Blizzard’s source code or to obtain and analyze
data that would be necessary for the creation of the Bossland Hacks. See MAI Sys.
Corp. v. Peak Comput., Inc., 991 F.2d 511, 519 (9th Cir. 1993) (unauthorized
copies of software in RAM memory constituted unauthorized reproductions under
the Copyright Act).

Amusingly related to the mods HQ hosts which some people (falsely) believe are not derivative works:

Second, when users download, install, and use the Bossland Hacks they
infringe Blizzard’s copyright by altering the Blizzard Games’ gameplay and
presentation, thereby creating a derivative work of the video game. For example,
Overwatch Tyrant generates a dynamic screen overlay which it then incorporates
into Overwatch’s screen display. See Compl., ¶ ¶ 32-37; 65; 71; 77; Midway Mfg.
Co. v. Artic Int'l, Inc., 704 F.2d 1009, 1013-14 (7th Cir. 1983); Micro Star v.
Formgen Inc., 154 F.3d 1107, 1112 (9th Cir. 1998).

So much as changing a single piece — a word, a line of code, a brush stroke — creatives a derivative work.

You can find more here: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/41 ... land-gmbh/

[OnTilt]

I don't have any interest in guessing how the lawsuit shakes out -- the law only means whatever the people with power want it to mean at the time.

I'm just here to say all IP law is fake and ghey and I'll continue to ignore it.

[wndrbr]

[SoLong]

Although, to play devil's advocate.. it amazes me that Blizzard can sue bot creators .. when their source is all originally written and just automates playing a game.. they aren't doing anything a player can't do.. how is that lawsuit worthy?

AFAIK Because they have to agree to a contract to not reverse engineer the game to play it, which they violated. WoW can't be reverse engineered without actually connecting to the game servers.

I should point out that Blizzard never saw a penny of the money they sued for.

Because the company they sued is German, doesn't have a seat in America and therefore the German courts eventually told Blizzard to go pound sand and flipped off the American court by saying that no, we're not going to enforce your ruling for you.

It's basically the same thing Rusty does with RPGHQ: The website is based in the USA and therefore he can ignore the demands of anyone who wants to enforce non-USA law.

[Xenich]

It's within Nintendo's terms not to mess with their proprietary software/hardware, which is pretty standard in tech. Team Yuzu would have had to mess with it to bypass security measures when creating the emulator. And it's likely they did this illegally as well since Nintendo definitely didn't give them the keys necessary. I am pretty sure Nintendo has existing precedents on their side as well like the Gary Bowser case who now owes Nintendo millions for selling switches with modified software.

Yes, but didn't John Deer lose this exact case on the same grounds of farmers altering their software because the main difference between some of the models was simply that? They tried to argue the code was theirs, and the farmer had no right to modify that code of a tractor they owned on the very private property they kept. I could be wrong, but I thought the case didn't win.

[Nammu Archag]

It's within Nintendo's terms not to mess with their proprietary software/hardware, which is pretty standard in tech. Team Yuzu would have had to mess with it to bypass security measures when creating the emulator. And it's likely they did this illegally as well since Nintendo definitely didn't give them the keys necessary. I am pretty sure Nintendo has existing precedents on their side as well like the Gary Bowser case who now owes Nintendo millions for selling switches with modified software.

Yes, but didn't John Deer lose this exact case on the same grounds of farmers altering their software because the main difference between some of the models was simply that? They tried to argue the code was theirs, and the farmer had no right to modify that code of a tractor they owned on the very private property they kept. I could be wrong, but I thought the case didn't win.

no, afaik ik that was over the right to repair as John Deer consumers couldn't get adequate repairs for vital equipment without violating john deer clauses. That's a bit different and is also a big deal when it could hamper global food supply. They already bought the equipment in accordance with laws and the terms of the company, but the company JD was unable to deliver adequate service. Meanwhile, yuzu allows you to get a modified Nintendo product entirely through a 3rd party without ever touching a switch. That's obviously based because fuck Nintendo, but is legally stupid for someone making money off of it in RI.

[Xenich]

It's within Nintendo's terms not to mess with their proprietary software/hardware, which is pretty standard in tech. Team Yuzu would have had to mess with it to bypass security measures when creating the emulator. And it's likely they did this illegally as well since Nintendo definitely didn't give them the keys necessary. I am pretty sure Nintendo has existing precedents on their side as well like the Gary Bowser case who now owes Nintendo millions for selling switches with modified software.

Yes, but didn't John Deer lose this exact case on the same grounds of farmers altering their software because the main difference between some of the models was simply that? They tried to argue the code was theirs, and the farmer had no right to modify that code of a tractor they owned on the very private property they kept. I could be wrong, but I thought the case didn't win.

no, afaik ik that was over the right to repair as John Deer consumers couldn't get adequate repairs for vital equipment without violating john deer clauses. That's a bit different and is also a big deal when it could hamper global food supply. They already bought the equipment in accordance with laws and the terms of the company, but the company JD was unable to deliver adequate service. Meanwhile, yuzu allows you to get a modified Nintendo product entirely through a 3rd party without ever touching a switch. That's obviously based because fuck Nintendo, but is legally stupid for someone making money off of it in RI.

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification.

[Oyster Sauce]

Sorry Nintendo... I'm with the disgusting trannies on this one

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Nintendo could massively cut down on emulation of their games if they offered good PC ports of them. You have games with great aesthetics like Xenoblade Chronicles that look fabulous on a high rez monitor with uncapped framerates and unlimited draw distance and better anti-aliasing and so on, but they are trapped on the weak Nintendo consoles. Buying a Nintendo game and then emulating it on PC is the best experience. It also doesn't help that Nintendo of America's shitty "localizations" drives people to fan translation and decensorship patches, and the path of least of resistance is to just download the game and emulate it on computer rather than to try to acquire a legitimate copy, rip a copy as a backup just in case, burn a patch to your cartridge/disc, and then put it back into your console (and then try to burn the copy back onto the disc/cartridge in case something went wrong).

[Vaako]

Maybe nintendo should embrace mods then, I wasnt interested in supporting them for Totk because I wanted to use mods and better hardware.

[Breathe]

Metroid Dread ran buttery smooth on emu for me, though I may have been using Ryujinx for it. I can't remember now. In any case, why the fuck can't nintendo just embrace this shit instead of always trying to shut down any hint of fun people may be having with their IP's?

I was actually thinking about buying a Switch 2 but they can fuck off now. Maybe I'll get a Steam Deck and emulate Switch on it.

[KnightoftheWind]

Instead of seeing the over-reliance on emulation as a business/service problem, they only see it as a violation of their copyright. Disregarding the fact that "IP", or "intellectual property", is mostly gake and fay and everyone knows it, Nintendo's executives need to take a good hard look at customer feedback and really take it into account. Maybe the reason people like emulating their games so much, is because A: It's Free, and B: the games play and look better through emulation. Who in their right mind would pay $60+ for a game that runs at 720p/30 on real hardware, if they have the means to emulate it and get a much better experience?. Nintendo fans were probably abused more than any other this generation. Full-price Wii U ports, broken controllers that require constant maintenance and/or replacement, paid online that doesn't even compare to Xbox Live 1.0, and a sharp decline in the quality of output post-2017. Xbox and PlayStation are so benign and irrelevant in recent years I don't even think they have any fans, so they don't count.

Any good business would see this as an opportunity for further growth and investment. Nintendo should be porting their backlog to PC, and giving the customer what they want- to play Nintendo games on the hardware they prefer.

[rusty_shackleford]

Instead of seeing the over-reliance on emulation as a business/service problem, they only see it as a violation of their copyright. Disregarding the fact that "IP", or "intellectual property", is mostly gake and fay and everyone knows it, Nintendo's executives need to take a good hard look at customer feedback and really take it into account. Maybe the reason people like emulating their games so much, is because A: It's Free, and B: the games play and look better through emulation. Who in their right mind would pay $60+ for a game that runs at 720p/30 on real hardware, if they have the means to emulate it and get a much better experience?. Nintendo fans were probably abused more than any other this generation. Full-price Wii U ports, broken controllers that require constant maintenance and/or replacement, paid online that doesn't even compare to Xbox Live 1.0, and a sharp decline in the quality of output post-2017. Xbox and PlayStation are so benign and irrelevant in recent years I don't even think they have any fans, so they don't count.

Any good business would see this as an opportunity for further growth and investment. Nintendo should be porting their backlog to PC, and giving the customer what they want- to play Nintendo games on the hardware they prefer.

It's expected from a jap company, they have some of the most retarded views on IP.

[KnightoftheWind]

Japs copy off of each other all the time, they borrow ideas, learn from other's failures and successes. A lot of Japanese devs have LONG since shifted focus to PC-based development, while Nintendo has yet to release a single game for the PC. This phenomenon seems restricted to Nintendo only. I think because they're so successful, and got to the top because they were so ruthless and heavy handed, they think they can bully others for the sake of it. Regardless, I take this as a lesson to spend less of my time giving Nintendo any of my mindshare. I've been getting quite bored of their usual batch of IPs anyway. How many times can people play the same games and see the same characters without getting sick of them?. No more Mario, no more Zelda, please. There are better alternatives from other businesses don't that despise me (as much).

[maidenhaver]

Niptendo.