"If gods existed, the only moral thing would be to oppose them"

[Emphyrio]

@Rand

Oh, I'm MUCH worse than that. I read most of the various gods' books and not only am I glad they don't exist, because they're utterly monstrous, but if they did exist, the only moral thing to do would be to oppose them.

If not from gods, then where does your "morality" derive? I take the view that all morality is downstream from power. God decides what is moral because God is all-powerful. God is not subject to the same moral laws we are because God is sovereign. Moral behavior is obedience and submission to God. How can you "oppose" all-powerful gods? It's foolish. Whether the gods are evil or good is irrelevant (but if they're good, or at least not malicious, we're fortunate).

[Mondain]

There being no god is infinitely more cruel than there being any god. Wanting to be part of random, meaningless entropy is completely foreign to me.


Also, the idea of a higher power is much more logical than just shrugging your shoulders and saying everything came from nothing.

[ArcaneLurker]

These arguments would have validity if there was a direct communication with a pantheon or the creator of the world or upholder of destiny...


Otherwise, all you're going by are the interpretations & writings of man, thus the morality you pick up comes from men, until it can be proven to those that can not be satisfied with platitudes about (blind) "faith". You understand this when it comes to Jews, Mormons, Libtarded Christians, Muslims, Buddhists or Hindus, but not your own faith.

[Emphyrio]

Otherwise, all you're going by are the interpretations & writings of man, thus the morality you pick up comes from men, until it can be proven to those that can not be satisfied with platitudes about (blind) "faith". You understand this when it comes to Jews, Mormons, Libtarded Christians, Muslims, Buddhists or Hindus, but not your own faith.

No, I understand what you're saying, and you'd have a good point, except that Christians believe that the Bible is a direct communication from God.

[Anon]

He's a materialist and can't see beyond the matter, which makes his vision of the universe absurdly shallow and false.

Lucky for him, he can still find salvation, per Jesus Christ's words:

The Parable of the Two Sons
28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

[ArcaneLurker]

Without materialism I would no doubt be more libtarded than my religious parents. If I was to ignore material realities, I'd instead prioritise vague ideals based on perceived popular notions or widely shared values-- the Leftist cultural climate isn't caused by too much materialism, it's caused by a lack of it, a lack of being grounded in a shared & stable sense of logic.

If I posted letter, it could be addressed to you from me, but you wouldn't be sure it really came from me until you clarified with me in person... the latter (not letter) is what I meant as "direct communication," there's a tangible presence there. A book is not proof, but the book leaves a clever clause which turns that into a test, rewarding any who are gullible enough to accept it as truth, with ideas of superiority over those that remain sceptical-- no matter what happens in life, or what their status is or capabilities are.

[J1M]

Title is nonsense. A varied pantheon would be cool and it would be laughable for an individual mortal to oppose them. Plus, you'd be standing against your fellow posters (who obviously would worship the god of RPGs).

[rusty_shackleford]

title was written by josh sawyer

[Anon]

Without materialism I would no doubt be more libtarded than my religious parents. If I was to ignore material realities, I'd instead prioritise vague ideals based on perceived popular notions or widely shared values-- the Leftist cultural climate isn't caused by too much materialism, it's caused by a lack of it, a lack of being grounded in a shared & stable sense of logic.

If I posted letter, it could be addressed to you from me, but you wouldn't be sure it really came from me until you clarified with me in person... the latter (not letter) is what I meant as "direct communication," there's a tangible presence there. A book is not proof, but the book leaves a clever clause which turns that into a test, rewarding any who are gullible enough to accept it as truth, with ideas of superiority over those that remain sceptical-- no matter what happens in life, or what their status is or capabilities are.

Materialism is the concept of rejecting any form of metaphysics, or putting matter above metaphysics, that's what I'm opposing. Of course I'm not saying matter is irrelevant, otherwise God wouldn't have made the universe. And certainly most of our actions are directed towards improving or maintaining our material lives and situations, which isn't wrong by itself.

[Rand]

God decides what is moral because God is all-powerful. God is not subject to the same moral laws we are because God is sovereign. Moral behavior is obedience and submission to God.

That's just monstrous tyranny with extra apologetics.

Your question has been answered in detail elsewhere.
But it's longer and more complicated that that of most theistic ones, so I won't detail it here.
I encourage you to find and read it. It may even make you a better person.

How can you "oppose" all-powerful gods?

I didn't say you could, but that you should, since many reveal their evil by their alleged actions (as stated as facts in their own "divinely written" texts) and additionally the actions they compel or inspire in their followers. (If your followers do horrendous things and you as the all powerful sovereign do nothing to stop it, then you are complicit if only by reckless indifference.)
Note that not all are evil. Amaterasu, for example, seems to not be too hard on humans.

[ArcaneLurker]

Without materialism I would no doubt be more libtarded than my religious parents. If I was to ignore material realities, I'd instead prioritise vague ideals based on perceived popular notions or widely shared values-- the Leftist cultural climate isn't caused by too much materialism, it's caused by a lack of it, a lack of being grounded in a shared & stable sense of logic.

If I posted letter, it could be addressed to you from me, but you wouldn't be sure it really came from me until you clarified with me in person... the latter (not letter) is what I meant as "direct communication," there's a tangible presence there. A book is not proof, but the book leaves a clever clause which turns that into a test, rewarding any who are gullible enough to accept it as truth, with ideas of superiority over those that remain sceptical-- no matter what happens in life, or what their status is or capabilities are.

or putting matter above metaphysics,

It's either one or the other, and the way we build metaphysics is through exploration of the material, and the less grounded someone is in logic & matter, the more detached from reality their metaphysical ideas can become.

For example: The opposite is someone who prioritises metaphysical concepts or theories of fairness and egalitarianism, or "we're all created equal in God's eyes," over any material realities they may find that contradict this worldview.

[Anon]

Without materialism I would no doubt be more libtarded than my religious parents. If I was to ignore material realities, I'd instead prioritise vague ideals based on perceived popular notions or widely shared values-- the Leftist cultural climate isn't caused by too much materialism, it's caused by a lack of it, a lack of being grounded in a shared & stable sense of logic.

If I posted letter, it could be addressed to you from me, but you wouldn't be sure it really came from me until you clarified with me in person... the latter (not letter) is what I meant as "direct communication," there's a tangible presence there. A book is not proof, but the book leaves a clever clause which turns that into a test, rewarding any who are gullible enough to accept it as truth, with ideas of superiority over those that remain sceptical-- no matter what happens in life, or what their status is or capabilities are.

or putting matter above metaphysics,

It's either one or the other, and the way we build metaphysics is through exploration of the material

Depends on what we're talking about. If we're talking about religion, absolutely not. Religion is all about teaching us to see beyond the matter and have faith (which by definition is believing in something without evidence, which means no or very few backing in the material plane).

and the less grounded someone is in logic & matter, the more detached from reality their metaphysical ideas can become.

Mostly logic and education, I agree, because that makes people more prone to be manipulated into wrong ideas, and that obviously also skews their comprehension of metaphysical concepts/values.

For example: The opposite is someone who prioritises metaphysical concepts or theories of fairness and egalitarianism, or "we're all created equal in God's eyes," over any material realities they may find that contradict this worldview.

Well, that would be following Jesus Christ's teachings and having faith in these teachings, and that doesn't necessarily mean you're an ignorant person. Just that you have faith in a plane above the material world that goes against any material evidence you may have, where there is a divine justice that'll make all things ultimately just.

[Gregz]

God wants you to be happy, but grants you the freedom to be otherwise.

[Tweed]

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[jcd]

If not from gods, then where does your "morality" derive? I take the view that all morality is downstream from power. God decides what is moral because God is all-powerful.

This is like that atheist strawman where they say that without god religious people would be happy to rape, murder and pillage without remorse except you're actually doing it. You were supposed to say something that it's not just fear of hell keeping you moral or something, man.

[rusty_shackleford]

This is like that atheist strawman where they say that without god religious people would be happy to rape, murder and pillage without remorse except you're actually doing it.

Strawman?
Have you taken a look around lately?

[ArcaneLurker]

Depends on what we're talking about. If we're talking about religion, absolutely not. Religion is all about teaching us to see beyond the matter and have faith (which by definition is believing in something without evidence, which means no or very few backing in the material plane).

I am talking about it in the most general sense possible.
I already addressed faith, it's no different than the faith that people put in various other concepts of deities or morality systems.
Muslims believe that Mohammed was taken to the moon on a man-horse or some crap like that.
All sorts of claims could be made and believed when you don't take truth seriously enough to demand evidence.

And there's no point attacking atheism either, because I'm not against theism entirely, I'm just pointing out the obvious when it comes to morality. You have to back up claims that your morality comes from divinity, or else they are no different than some crazy asshole claiming his own ideas are divine.

Mostly logic and education, I agree, because that makes people more prone to be manipulated into wrong ideas, and that obviously also skews their comprehension of metaphysical concepts/values.

You're trying to be clever here but it just comes across as incoherent. I agree that higher education tends to be a brainwashing station, but they are still prioritising metaphysics, it's just not derived from the same sources.

Well, that would be following Jesus Christ's teachings and having faith in these teachings

Thanks for admitting the obvious. It also makes them an idiot driven by blind faith in a Jewish book over more tangible evidence.

[Emphyrio]

But it's longer and more complicated that that of most theistic ones, so I won't detail it here.
I encourage you to find and read it. It may even make you a better person.

Yeah, I already read Justine.

[Emphyrio]

If not from gods, then where does your "morality" derive? I take the view that all morality is downstream from power. God decides what is moral because God is all-powerful.

This is like that atheist strawman where they say that without god religious people would be happy to rape, murder and pillage without remorse except you're actually doing it. You were supposed to say something that it's not just fear of hell keeping you moral or something, man.

Yes.

[Anon]

Depends on what we're talking about. If we're talking about religion, absolutely not. Religion is all about teaching us to see beyond the matter and have faith (which by definition is believing in something without evidence, which means no or very few backing in the material plane).

I am talking about it in the most general sense possible.
I already addressed faith, it's no different than the faith that people put in various other concepts of deities or morality systems.
Muslims believe that Mohammed was taken to the moon on a man-horse or some crap like that.
All sorts of claims could be made and believed when you don't take truth seriously enough to demand evidence.

And there's no point attacking atheism either, because I'm not against theism entirely, I'm just pointing out the obvious when it comes to morality. You have to back up claims that your morality comes from divinity, or else they are no different than some crazy asshole claiming his own ideas are divine.

Yes there are multiple faiths, and yes wild claims are a consequence of you being allowed to claim things not backed on hard, material evidence. I believe in Jesus Christ because I saw truth in his words, and that's something I can't prove, much less show you as God obviously hasn't given me such powers.

You're trying to be clever here but it just comes across as incoherent. I agree that higher education tends to be a brainwashing station, but they are still prioritising metaphysics, it's just not derived from the same sources.

I said the inverse of what you understood. I said exactly that lack of education facilitates brainwashing, omitting the "less grounded" part because you mentioned it previously and I quoted that part directly.

But of course that relation isn't necessary. As you've said there are people that the more studied they become (or rather how much material knowledge they attain), the more arrogant, materialistic and self-absorved they become. There are plenty illiterate farmers that have more elevated spirits than PhDs who spent most of their time studying and teaching bullshit.

And I think you're mistaking metaphysics for mere abstractions. Matemathics is abstraction of the material plane, not metaphysics, for example.

Thanks for admitting the obvious. It also makes them an idiot driven by blind faith in a Jewish book over more tangible evidence.

Well I won't try to force my faith into anybody. I can only suggest you try reading the new testament and see if you can find some truth in Jesus Christ's words and actions.

Btw the New Testament isn't jewish, actually the jews hate it because it largely denounces them. And you can see the jews loathe christianity more than anything.

[Rand]

If not from gods, then where does your "morality" derive? I take the view that all morality is downstream from power. God decides what is moral because God is all-powerful.

This is like that atheist strawman where they say that without god religious people would be happy to rape, murder and pillage without remorse except you're actually doing it. You were supposed to say something that it's not just fear of hell keeping you moral or something, man.

So, it's not a strawman if:
1) theists say things like "Without god's law, why don't you murder, rape, and steal?" implying that they believe that many, possibly including themselves and their co-religionists, only don't out of fear of punishment.
I state nothing, I draw the inference from the implication inherent to the question.
2) theists actually do seem to do those things pretty regularly and liberally in accounts throughout history. Belief in their deity does not only not seem to deter them, it is often seen to motivate and later excuse and even justify their horrendous actions.

[Emphyrio]

So, it's not a strawman if:
1) theists say things like "Without god's law, why don't you murder, rape, and steal?" implying that they believe that many, possibly including themselves and their co-religionists, only don't out of fear of punishment.
I state nothing, I draw the inference from the implication inherent to the question.
2) theists actually do seem to do those things pretty regularly and liberally in accounts throughout history. Belief in their deity does not only seem to deter them, it is often seen to motivate and later excuse them.

And what's wrong with that?

[Irenaeus]

LMAO that's exactly one of the core tenets of one of the fantasy religions in the religious roster existing in my CK2 LP (to be revealed).

[ArcaneLurker]

much less show you as God obviously hasn't given me such powers.

Or anyone else.

I said the inverse of what you understood. I said exactly that lack of education facilitates brainwashing, omitting the "less grounded" part because you mentioned it previously and I quoted that part directly.

I take "educated" to mean "informed by educational authorities," so it depends on the quality of education. In the past educated individuals would have had markedly wiser viewpoints. Nowadays they are informed by Marxist academics & thinktanks. Marxists believed genetics was pseudoscience, whilst peddling ridiculous pseudoscience of their own, and they still maintain the key part of this in the form of "race isn't real." So now we have biologists denying biology in regards to gender/ sex too.

But of course that relation isn't necessary. As you've said there are people that the more studied they become (or rather how much material knowledge they attain), the more arrogant, materialistic and self-absorved they become. There are plenty illiterate farmers that have more elevated spirits than PhDs who spent most of their time studying and teaching bullshit.

This is the point I'm getting at, the current academia are not materialistic enough. The more autistically materialistic an individual is, the more likely they will not fit in with the academia, and more likely they will be to support science which is accurate but offensive to 'protected groups'. The mainstream Academia prioritise metaphysical ideals essentially based on Jewish mysticism or popular thought-- Kabbalah, etc, not that they fully realise that when it's delivered to them in the form of "secular ethics." Even Veganism is "Noahide."

Well I won't try to force my faith into anybody. I can only suggest you try reading the new testament and see if you can find some truth in Jesus Christ's words and actions.

The reason I never got baptised, despite being raised in it, was because I read it more than others and thought about the contradictions and logical issues, particularly with that sect's interpretations, but also in general.

[WhiteShark]

Definitionally, God can't be evil. To say that God is evil presupposes the existence of a moral law that is separate from and superior to God, which begs the question: whence proceeds that moral law? If there were a moral law by which even God were judged, then He were not God, the supreme being, but a subordinate to whatever being from which flows the law, and that being would be God.

God is the law. His virtues are the ones by which we are judged. Morality is the attempt to live up to God's nature. It is not an artificial, arbitrary thing separate from God and merely enforced by might but a fundamental aspect of reality. Hence, the idea that one should, or even could, morally oppose God, is an oxymoron.

[J1M]

title was written by josh sawyer

If he stole the Deadfire title, how do we know he didn't steal this title too?

[J1M]

This is like that atheist strawman where they say that without god religious people would be happy to rape, murder and pillage without remorse except you're actually doing it.

Strawman?
Have you taken a look around lately?

This misunderstanding is mainly about which group each uses people to refer to.

[Anon]

much less show you as God obviously hasn't given me such powers.

Or anyone else.

Ha, let's settle it as a respectful disagreement.

I take "educated" to mean "informed by educational authorities," so it depends on the quality of education. In the past educated individuals would have had markedly wiser viewpoints. Nowadays they are informed by Marxist academics & thinktanks. Marxists believed genetics was pseudoscience, whilst peddling ridiculous pseudoscience of their own, and they still maintain the key part of this in the form of "race isn't real." So now we have biologists denying biology in regards to gender/ sex too.

This is the point I'm getting at, the current academia are not materialistic enough. The more autistically materialistic an individual is, the more likely they will not fit in with the academia, and more likely they will be to support science which is accurate but offensive to 'protected groups'. The mainstream Academia prioritise metaphysical ideals essentially based on Jewish mysticism or popular thought-- Kabbalah, etc, not that they fully realise that when it's delivered to them in the form of "secular ethics." Even Veganism is "Noahide."

You unconsciously mean education was good when it was directed by christians. Because christians (except the evangelical-zionist variety, these are only pretense farisees following the devil) see the importance of impartial, scientific education to comprehend the universe God has created and put us in.

You're, unbeknownst to you, getting exactly the kind of materialistic education you always wished nowadays. Because marxists are the biggest materialists there are.

The reason I never got baptised, despite being raised in it, was because I read it more than others and thought about the contradictions and logical issues, particularly with that sect's interpretations, but also in general.

I was an atheist until my twenties, I totally get what you're saying.

I can only say atheism is ultimately a state of purposeless existence. Yeah as an atheist you can think you can make your own purpose, but that's too vague and ultimately a lie because you know it'll all be gone after you die or shortly after that. You don't believe there is anything to you after you die and that's ultimately purposeless.

You can't properly justify a solid moral system like the one Jesus Christ proposed because it doesn't make sense being "good" if there's nothing in the afterlife, no God to love, appease and fear. The only course of action that would make sense in an atheistic reality would be to be the most greedy and egotistical you could, so you could accumulate the most matter possible to extract the most you can of your superficial, materialistic existence, because that's all there is in a materialistic life, that's the hard limit.

It's all too superficial to me, that's why I couldn't stick with it for longer after I got some more conscience.

And to end, I'm a christian because Jesus Christ is the only one who conceptualized a moral system and metaphysical vision that make sense. The other religions are all materialistic almost the same way as being an atheist, a waste of time.

[Emphyrio]

Morality is the attempt to live up to God's nature. It is not an artificial, arbitrary thing separate from God and merely enforced by might but a fundamental aspect of reality.

I mostly agree but I'll quibble on this point. God may set rules for us that, as soveriegn, he is not obligated to follow himself. Obvious one: thou shalt not kill.

[Decline]

@Rand

Oh, I'm MUCH worse than that. I read most of the various gods' books and not only am I glad they don't exist, because they're utterly monstrous, but if they did exist, the only moral thing to do would be to oppose them.

If not from gods, then where does your "morality" derive? I take the view that all morality is downstream from power. God decides what is moral because God is all-powerful. God is not subject to the same moral laws we are because God is sovereign. Moral behavior is obedience and submission to God. How can you "oppose" all-powerful gods? It's foolish. Whether the gods are evil or good is irrelevant (but if they're good, or at least not malicious, we're fortunate).

If Rand has a morality, which he necessarily has, otherwise he could not declare acts to be moral, he has a belief and therefore he also has a god. He just thinks his god to be superior to all other, older, gods. Foolish megalomania, in other words the devil at work.