List of woke and non-woke role-playing games

[Xenich]

Well, a Paladin would be a holy knight. Being a knight meant a significant position in that time, even if you were nominally a monk.

At least in its origins (AD&D) Paladins felt more like Arthurian knights/Charlemagne paladins than templars. In fact, it's the Cleric the one that is compared with the armed monks of a Holy Order, not the Paladin.

That's the funny/ironic part. Their religion blinded them to the people (some of them, anyway) orchestrating their ruin.

This is not as clear cut as you seem to assume: Check out the Finder's Case. The Satanic Panic actually has a (small) basis in reality and there's evidence of cultic "satanic" activity related to the kidnapping of children around this time. That said, the D&D-related panic was pure noise and completely unrelated to this.

To better understand Gygax's reasoning, remember that paladin used to have significant drawbacks in play. An "anti-paladin" would have no such drawbacks, and just be a munchkin class.

It's important here to also point out that AD&D 1e worked far more like a wargame than a modern ttrpg, and the players were expected to act within very well-defined roles. What role a champion of evil has in a team, exactly? The Paladin as a class isn't just absurdly difficult to qualify to (I have rolled 50 different characters in a spread sheet using the methods of the DMG and only 5 or 7 can be paladins), but its function is to basically fuck over any evil monster the party may encounter, a type that is overwhelmingly dominant in the MM. What would the anti-paladin do? Be a strong counter to what?

Which also has an effect on the classification and expectation of what an RPG is for some. I know when I consider an RPG, it is based on what Gygax did with AD&D and his desire to bring some order to the first basic edition release. Basic was neat, but it really was horrible for people who didn't have a background in wargames and resulted in a lot of people just playing make believe with the occasional dice throw.

AD&D brought structure to the system and made it more of a tangible means to connect with reality. Some of the most frustrating games in my youth were with the ones who simply wanted to LARP rather than play a game (always excusing illogical, impractical, or imbecilic actions as "its magic!, its fantasy!") and honestly, this same type of thing is a major division with gaming today with how many people simply dismiss the importance of a cohesive structure and symmetry within the system.

I mean, I have no problem with people who want that, but they also tend to be the ones that constantly dismiss the relevance of such systems and the purpose of play as if somehow it is a determent to game play when in fact it is the core aspect of what game play is.

[A Chinese opium den]

Didn't see it listed, so I thought since you are all discussing it, might as well provide it originally.

► Dragon Magazine #39 Anti-Paladin Article

Very cool looking guy.

[Xenich]

Didn't see it listed, so I thought since you are all discussing it, might as well provide it originally.

► Dragon Magazine #39 Anti-Paladin Article

Very cool looking guy.

Looks like they took someone in a golf swing and put armor on them. I like a lot of the older art, but that one looks a bit gay.

[A Chinese opium den]

Didn't see it listed, so I thought since you are all discussing it, might as well provide it originally.

► Dragon Magazine #39 Anti-Paladin Article

Very cool looking guy.

Looks like they took someone in a golf swing and put armor on them. I like a lot of the older art, but that one looks a bit gay.

Yes but thats why its soulful, I like how he looks a lot.

[Xenich]

Very cool looking guy.

Looks like they took someone in a golf swing and put armor on them. I like a lot of the older art, but that one looks a bit gay.

Yes but thats why its soulful, I like how he looks a lot.

To each their own, I know there are some of the monsters in the early monster manuals that look funky and stupid as hell, but they are my favorites.

edit:
I have always wanted to see a game made stylized to the original AD&D art, even 3d models (if it were done faithfully).

I keep thinking of my ultimate game would be combination of EQ like and AD&D mixed together into a large world with secrets, massive dungeons, caverns, and environments, hard as hell, unforgiving, but also equally rewarding.

[GalwainOthmark]

AD&D brought structure to the system and made it more of a tangible means to connect with reality. Some of the most frustrating games in my youth were with the ones who simply wanted to LARP rather than play a game (always excusing illogical, impractical, or imbecilic actions as "its magic!, its fantasy!") and honestly, this same type of thing is a major division with gaming today with how many people simply dismiss the importance of a cohesive structure and symmetry within the system.

One has to wonder how the CRPG as genre might have evolved if its influences came primarely from the 3 AD&D 1e core rulebooks instead of the approach and the expectations of 2e. IMO the semi-wargame Gygax made isn't just more interesting and dynamic as a ttrpg, but also far more suited for virtual enviroments than the "theater kid" approach that came to dominate. You don't even need to innovate too much: A program could take Appendix A to generate dungeons, Appendix B for the world/wilderness, the MM to populate said world and generate lairs with treasure, and of course City/Town encounters for the few densely populated locations. With that+the reaction checks you have an extremely deep, replayable open world.

It's a shame that the current expectations placed upon CRPGs give so much importance to directed, branching narratives instead of emergent stuff.

[Rand]

a lot of people just playing make believe with the occasional dice throw.

Ah. The latest Critical Role contingent of "players".

[GalwainOthmark]

Ah. The latest Critical Role contingent of "players".

It's actually very, very old. CR's merit is turning mainstream an already common (and, in the opinions of many, flawed) way of playing the game. Mercer's talents as a voice actor solidified the idea of the GM/DM as primarely an entertainer that lords over the whole narrative.

To be completely fair, the entire hobby had long ago shifted to favor interpretation and storytelling over mechanics.

[gerey]

To be completely fair, the entire hobby had long ago shifted to favor interpretation and storytelling over mechanics.

End result of not bullying homosexuals and theater kids enough.

[Xenich]

To be completely fair, the entire hobby had long ago shifted to favor interpretation and storytelling over mechanics.

End result of not bullying homosexuals and theater kids enough.

Also an influx of low intellect types. Most of your early pen and paper players were war gamers and the like. They loved tactical situations, crunching the numbers, strategy, etc...

Our DM was always into those... very technical type (Computer science, etc..), but... he got a girlfriend and she started playing with us. She was an English Lit major, earthy type and the games turned to "story" focused. She would complain if we got too technical and dismiss the various types of discussions we used to have on mechanics. Needless to say, I fell out of interest not too long after that as the game stopped being fun as it turned into some fag LARPing thing.

[GalwainOthmark]

Needless to say, I fell out of interest not too long after that as the game stopped being fun as it turned into some fag LARPing thing.

There's a reason for why chicks were the main audience of almost purely narrative games like VtM. And to give credit where credit is due, when a game is designed around that concept there isn't many reasons to complain.

The problem is that D&D at its core retains the vestigial mechanics of the wargame/adventure game while intentionally moving away from it, to hilariously bad results like combats lasting forever.

[Xenich]

Needless to say, I fell out of interest not too long after that as the game stopped being fun as it turned into some fag LARPing thing.

There's a reason for why chicks were the main audience of almost purely narrative games like VtM. And to give credit where credit is due, when a game is designed around that concept there isn't many reasons to complain.

The problem is that D&D at its core retains the vestigial mechanics of the wargame/adventure game while intentionally moving away from it, to hilariously bad results like combats lasting forever.

yeah, I had a friend who used to go on about playing VtM. We tried playing it a bit one time standard table top style, but it was always... well... rule light and I couldn't stand the excessive story focus on tons of dialogue, narrations, etc... Apparently, the way I was told it was best played was to go out to some physical location, dress up, act out the dialogue... I asked, how do you resolve various conflicts and the like? He said "Ro sham bo"... Yeah, fuck that. Fucking LARPing, can't stand it.

[Tag365]

To be completely fair, the entire hobby had long ago shifted to favor interpretation and storytelling over mechanics.

End result of not bullying homosexuals and theater kids enough.

Also an influx of low intellect types. Most of your early pen and paper players were war gamers and the like. They loved tactical situations, crunching the numbers, strategy, etc...

Our DM was always into those... very technical type (Computer science, etc..), but... he got a girlfriend and she started playing with us. She was an English Lit major, earthy type and the games turned to "story" focused. She would complain if we got too technical and dismiss the various types of discussions we used to have on mechanics. Needless to say, I fell out of interest not too long after that as the game stopped being fun as it turned into some fag LARPing thing.

Yeah, I keep on seeing in videos on YouTube players apparently have problems with math problems being in the game. Very strange for what is supposed to be a classic nerd/geek game.

[Falksi]

The nobility of this thread really is reaching far off realms of mainstream social media, and having a genuinely positive effect.

I've seen quite a few people refer to it now for games to avoid.

Keep up the good work chaps.

[twig]

Can someone provide info on SKALD?

(Added refs and score for Kenshi.)
(Reorganized the first post based on @Eyestabber's complaint from IRC.

[Gunnar]

Can someone provide info on SKALD?

(Added refs and score for Kenshi.)

Skald is full of girlbosses, girl guard captain, girl mercenary leader, girl pirate leader, black bald girl outlaw leader, etc. there is also a lesbian romance between a female drunken bard (lol) and a peasant girl.

[Acrux]

there is also a lesbian romance

To be fair, this one has an (inadvertent) implication of foreshadowing the horrible supernatural evil.

[BosanskiSeljak]

Drova getting pretty popular in terms of indie RPG.

Light woke elements- basically all of it in the form of strong womynz (a lot of them tan) as warriors and the like almost an exact 50/50 split

[UltraFan123]

Drova getting pretty popular in terms of indie RPG.

Light woke elements- basically all of it in the form of strong womynz (a lot of them tan) as warriors and the like almost an exact 50/50 split

What I think is very funny is the fact that the "women in warfare" would work better if it actually portrayed said women doing what they are hardwired to do best; give support to the males in stuff that doesn't involve direct combat.

Like the French army under Napoleon for instance had women in it whose purpose was to cook stuff for the men and give medical assistance, and I likewise would point to the Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle from WH40k who likewise give moral support to the in-story troops and only fight from a distance with long-range weapons.

The idea of female warriors who are basically dudes with boobs may have been novel back when Xena The Warrior Princess came out 30 years ago, but at this point is now just stale and overdone to death.

[Manny V]

Drova getting pretty popular in terms of indie RPG.

Light woke elements- basically all of it in the form of strong womynz (a lot of them tan) as warriors and the like almost an exact 50/50 split

What I think is very funny is the fact that the "women in warfare" would work better if it actually portrayed said women doing what they are hardwired to do best; give support to the males in stuff that doesn't involve direct combat.

Like the French army under Napoleon for instance had women in it whose purpose was to cook stuff for the men and give medical assistance, and I likewise would point to the Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle from WH40k who likewise give moral support to the in-story troops and only fight from a distance with long-range weapons.

The idea of female warriors who are basically dudes with boobs may have been novel back when Xena The Warrior Princess came out 30 years ago, but at this point is now just stale and overdone to death.

aye, women in wars were generally 'camp followers', where they would help with the supply train, do all the oddjobs like cooking, carrying stuff, helping the soldiers get their armour on, medical stuff, having sex with the soldiers, etc etc

[Falksi]

Can someone provide info on SKALD?

(Added refs and score for Kenshi.)
(Reorganized the first post based on @Eyestabber's complaint from IRC.

Honestly, it was never an issue for me in Skald at all.

The strong female presence was only akin to Alis/Alys in Phantasy Star, or Valeria in Conan. Yes, there are strong women and the ratio is probably a bit out of balance, but none of the writing ever seemed to force them as "better than men", they're inclusion as strong women feels pretty natural and well done in context o the game.

There is one conversation with an NPC that touches on lesbian romance, but again it feels fairly in-game, and is very brief.

Skald is fucking brilliant, definite strong contender for my GOTY. I really wouldn't let your concerns get in the way of playing it. It's akin to having Margot Robbie strip naked in front of you, opening her legs, then worrying that her snatch isn't fully shaven. A few pubes in the teeth is more than worth the plus points.

[Gunnar]

I always knew you had astonishingly shit taste, Falksi, but now I know for sure you are a woke faggot

[TKVNC]

Can someone provide info on SKALD?

(Added refs and score for Kenshi.)

Skald is full of girlbosses, girl guard captain, girl mercenary leader, girl pirate leader, black bald girl outlaw leader, etc. there is also a lesbian romance between a female drunken bard (lol) and a peasant girl.

I mean, in that regard, Kenshi does have a lot of random female NPCs - but they're just there due to the games RNG character creation in 99% of situations - you can just edit the numbers to be 100% Male, which I actually might do a for a Mod.

[maidenhaver]

Drova getting pretty popular in terms of indie RPG.

Light woke elements- basically all of it in the form of strong womynz (a lot of them tan) as warriors and the like almost an exact 50/50 split

What I think is very funny is the fact that the "women in warfare" would work better if it actually portrayed said women doing what they are hardwired to do best; give support to the males in stuff that doesn't involve direct combat.

Like the French army under Napoleon for instance had women in it whose purpose was to cook stuff for the men and give medical assistance, and I likewise would point to the Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle from WH40k who likewise give moral support to the in-story troops and only fight from a distance with long-range weapons.

The idea of female warriors who are basically dudes with boobs may have been novel back when Xena The Warrior Princess came out 30 years ago, but at this point is now just stale and overdone to death.

The ONLY thing women are good at in warfare is presenting their fannies and spreading false intel.

[Valter]

Fable Anniversary allows the player to marry men.
The rival is a black chick but learns her place eventually.
Pretty classic fantasy hero's journey otherwise.

[twig]

Could use more quotable opinions on Skald (quantify how woke and girlbossy it is within the boundaries of this list's scoring system).

Same with on Drova, which is run by utterly pozzed and fanatical soyfaces and it needs proper citations.

[Lich]

Most games released in the past few years were woke. A list of non-"woke" games, under the assumption that those not listed are "woke" would seem much less autistic than this list.

[UltraFan123]

Well, some people have difference levels of how much wokeness they're willing to tolerate in a game.

Like some people are sick of niggers and faggots but don't mind a White warrior woman who isn't bossy nor has a toxic personality.

[Lich]

How is Caves of Qud's wokeness "none-mild"?

[logincrash]

Fable Anniversary allows the player to marry men.
The rival is a black chick but learns her place eventually.
Pretty classic fantasy hero's journey otherwise.

Anniversary is a botched "remaster" that looks and plays worse than the Lost Chapters version of the game.
I believe there was a homo or two in the original game as well that the player could marry.
Whisper (the black chick) is indeed very uppity, but she either admits that you're better than her or dies at your hand later in the game (in the arena).