Games that combine real-time shooting mechanics with RPG progression in a satisfying way

[wndrbr]

Devs usually use player's damage output as the main roadblock when gating content (you can't access certain areas because you can't kill stronger enemies before they kill you), or as the main merit of player's progression (look how strong you have become, can easily kill these stronger enemies). In RPGs and RPG-adjacent games with a focus on ranged combat there are three major ways of merging gunplay with stats - RNG, HP bloat, and convenience.

RNG (Deus Ex, VTMB, Alpha Protocol, Fallout 3) - character's stats affect accuracy. This method sucks, because in real-time action games players don't expect combat to use typical rpg abstractions like dicerolls, so barely scratching a ghoul despite dumping an entire machinegun mag at a point blank range would feel thoroughly unsatisfying.

HP bloat (Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 4, The Outer Worlds, various looter shooters) - character's stats affect damage output. This one also sucks - the inflated stats only lead to boredom, and the combat turns into a repetitive slog. Another reason HP bloat sucks is that it's usually used in games with level-based progression systems (i.e. enemies don't have definite attributes, and their HP fluctuates depending on whether the creature is lower/higher/on the same level as player character).

Convenience method has neither ridiculously low accuracy (when you miss your target despite standing right next to it), nor inflated HP, and instead focuses on making weapons annoying to use unless you have the required stats. Drawn out reload animations, slow rate of fire when using guns with a manual action, uncomfortable aiming reticle, strong recoil, regular jams and other malfunctions, etc. I don't have any good examples of rpg-actions with such mechanics, maybe if we count shooters that focus on simulationist aspect of gunplay (various autist gunporn games like Tarkov or STALKER Anomaly).

There are also RPG-actions that have static accuracy regardless of character's stats and don't manipulate with HP, and instead give player better weapons and ammo as they progress deeper into the game (Fallout NV). This solution creates an equipment bloat, since the starting weapons become next to useless after a while.

Are there any rpg-action hybrids where you can have both decent gunplay and satisfying RPG progression? Maybe examples of games that use one of the aforementioned methods, but do it correctly?

[agentorange]

Personally I like the way that Deus Ex does it. So long as the abstraction is only tied to accuracy and reload speed, things that can be overcome by ingenuity and can even meaningfully change playstyles. In Deus Ex if you crouch and wait long enough you can still get the reticle to a point of decent accuracy, so early game forces you to be more cautious in approaching enemies. You can also hit them more reliably if you are closer to them, so you can risk moving in close. You might rely on other tools more often early on, such as batons and prods to make up for lack of accuracy, which then become less necessary as you put more points into guns and begin to use them exclusively.

While putting more points into gun skills allows you to deal more damage, the base damage output of the guns are high enough that it never feels like you are dumping magazine after magazine into bloated masses of hp, and shots to areas like the head are still very lethal (I think even the pistol gives a one shot kill on the average stooge even at minimal skill level). Putting points into the skill then makes your tools more powerful and gives you more options, since you can now do everything you did before, but also run around and jump while shooting, shoot from longer distances, combine shooting with augs more effectively, etc. But the important thing is it does not feel like an exercise in frustration or egregiously break the logic of the game world at low levels (like having to dump multiple magazines into regular human enemies in VTMB and Fallout 3 does).

[Segata]

This method sucks, because in real-time action games players

That's a players problem, not a mechanic one.

[wndrbr]

This method sucks, because in real-time action games players

That's a players problem, not a mechanic one.

action-rpgs are popamole in nature, so it would make sense for them to be as crowd-pleasing as possible.

[agentorange]

The crowd doesn't even know what it wants, and its wants and desire are always shifting. No point trying to make something to please it.

It's interesting to me that I personally find it more tolerable, or not even an issue, when a game with melee combat has dice roll/heavily stat reliant damage and accuracy, but it annoys me when a game with a more modern setting with guns does it (as in when the guns have randomness to whether your shots land and how much damage they do, not the Deus Ex style where it only effects the crosshair but if your aim is on the enemy it always hits and does full damage). It doesn't bother me in Morrowind when I have to hit an enemy a bunch of times with my sword for one of the strikes to count, because I think my brain can abstract it away as being "glancing blows or the enemy is dodging the attack, until the one lethal blow which is the one that brings it to 0 hp." On the other hand in a game like VTMB it pisses me off when I'm unloading rounds into a goon and the small white numbers keep popping up and only occasionally a big orange number or something indicating I landed a real hit. I think there is a certain expectation with guns that the bullet go where you point the gun , that people can't really dodge the bullets, that they have a high degree of lethality, and changing any of those things makes them not feel like guns, whereas a sword feels like a sword while you are swinging it even if you are missing or doing little damage.

[Ratcatcher]

I agree with everything agentorange said. I should have probably formulated a similar argument when I explained why I don't consider games relying heavily on rng as being immersive sims. Not wanting to derail this thread tho, I'll limit myself and just add a smal point. Most (not all) of those games make tepid attempts at inventory and resource management.

Having the damage your guns inflict being tied to any kind of aleatory mechanic, means you will fuck up your ammo drops and other resources. Change my mind. I never found a game using similar systems where ammunition wasn't so plentiful as to make it a moot point. VtmB only goes against this tenet in the sewers, where ammo is super scarce. Widely recognized as one of the lowest point in the game.
Even Deus Ex, that did things right making your skill level only influence the speed at wich aim spread is reduced, offers an ungodly amount of resources at your disposal. I always thought this due to the fact the devs cannot properly predict how much is needed. When the requirement for killing a goon goes from N to four times as much due to bad rng, even if all your shot land, what exactly is asked to the player, in terms of skill?

[Tweed]

A decent portion of weapons in New Vegas actually stay relevant through perks that let people specialize in their preferred weapons I.E. Cowboy, Grunt, And Stay Back, Shotgun Surgeon, etc. But I also don't see low tier weapons becoming trash as an equipment bloat issue, it's only natural that some weapons won't be able to stay relevant for the entire game and there's not so many guns in NV that it spams the loot lists with trash, it's players that mod out their games with thousands of guns that do that.

STALKER and by proxy Anomaly's gun mechanics are condition based not skill based. Guns don't start fouling up and jamming until their condition drops past a certain level, like how the L85A1 starts to jam the moment it gets a speck of dirt on it.

[rusty_shackleford]

Mass Effect 3.

1 & 2 have insane HP bloat on insanity, 3 did away with that and switched to making the AI just play better on insanity. One of the more fun third person shooty games I've played.

[Arbiter]

instead give player better weapons and ammo as they progress deeper into the game (Fallout NV)

Weapons in FNV begin to malfunction with decreasing durability so it is easy to imagine a mod that uses character's skills instead of durability to simulate weapon effectiveness.

[Maggot]

Where's SS2 where weapon skills affect damage, but ammo/damage types have a drastic effect on damage.

[wndrbr]

Where's SS2 where weapon skills affect damage, but ammo/damage types have a drastic effect on damage.

yeah i guess different ammo types + ammo economy is a another good method of merging rpg-ey progression with gunplay.

[Maggot]

The crowd doesn't even know what it wants, and its wants and desire are always shifting. No point trying to make something to please it.

It's interesting to me that I personally find it more tolerable, or not even an issue, when a game with melee combat has dice roll/heavily stat reliant damage and accuracy, but it annoys me when a game with a more modern setting with guns does it (as in when the guns have randomness to whether your shots land and how much damage they do, not the Deus Ex style where it only effects the crosshair but if your aim is on the enemy it always hits and does full damage). It doesn't bother me in Morrowind when I have to hit an enemy a bunch of times with my sword for one of the strikes to count, because I think my brain can abstract it away as being "glancing blows or the enemy is dodging the attack, until the one lethal blow which is the one that brings it to 0 hp." On the other hand in a game like VTMB it pisses me off when I'm unloading rounds into a goon and the small white numbers keep popping up and only occasionally a big orange number or something indicating I landed a real hit. I think there is a certain expectation with guns that the bullet go where you point the gun , that people can't really dodge the bullets, that they have a high degree of lethality, and changing any of those things makes them not feel like guns, whereas a sword feels like a sword while you are swinging it even if you are missing or doing little damage.

Worth mentioning Deus Ex does the same thing SS2 does where higher weapon skills give a damage bonus, but the base damage is never terribly low to where guns no longer feel like guns.

[Gregz]

Borderlands 1 is still the best of this genre.

Force multipliers like Skill Tree X Weapon Mods satisfy my build autism, and the high-dakka bullet play works well as a visceral shooter.

I still have no idea why Borderlands 1 is so unpopular amongst this crowd, but I suspect it's because of a lack of experience with shooters.

[fork]

Dragon's Dogma.

Great real time action combat combined with C&C, good story, layered armour system, dungeon crawling etc.
There's character, enemy and item stats that guide your progression, but there are consumables to accelerate progression, and player skill is important as well.

One of the best games ever.

[WhiteShark]

Borderlands 1 is still the best of this genre.

Force multipliers like Skill Tree X Weapon Mods satisfy my build autism, and the high-dakka bullet play works well as a visceral shooter.

I still have no idea why Borderlands 1 is so unpopular amongst this crowd, but I suspect it's because of a lack of experience with shooters.

I love Borderlands but it's essentially a linear looter-shooter so it's not really surprising that it isn't well received on an RPG forum. Plus, you know, that final boss...

[Maggot]

I don't like Diablo loot in my games and I definitely don't like them in my shooters. I'd rather have 10 guns that feel meaningfully different from each other over 5000 randomly generated guns.

[Lhynn]

Deep rock galactic, though the biggest progression comes from the player, not the character. Decision making makes a world of difference there.

[Maggot]

I don't think that game really fits this thread, even if there are progression mechanics.

[GothGirlSupremacy]

I still have no idea why Borderlands 1 is so unpopular amongst this crowd, but I suspect it's because of a lack of experience with shooters.

Well think of it like this: if I buy a sword from someone, it could be a shitty sword. It could break, the material could have rusted, the edge is dull, the hilt/crossguard is no good, it feels flimsy or feels too heavy to be comfortable, etc. Maybe it looks pretty but that's because it's meant to be decorative and not actually used to chop off heads. There's a lot of factors there. With a gun, there's a ton less room for error when it comes to making an efficient one. As long as the gun lets you point at someone you don't like and it propels a bullet to kill it, then it has served its function.

That's why I don't mind Diablo-style loot for melee weapons as opposed to things like firearms since you can kind of justify why this sword isn't as good as that sword. Some settings, mostly sci-fi/futuristic, can be smart about it to get around that I guess like having cybernetic-plated lunatics that require better firepower to pierce through, but if it's regular thugs that are sponging hits then it comes off as retarded.

[rusty_shackleford]

The problem I have with diablo-style loot is that it doesn't make sense.

Why would some wizard take the time to create a subpar enchanted item nobody wants to use? Game design and worldbuilding should not be orthogonal.

[Ratcatcher]

Why would some wizard take the time to create a subpar enchanted item nobody wants to use?

The subpar thing could be easily explained with the item having lost part of the enchantment with time. The biggest issue with making sense is the sheer volume of them.

The thread is about real time shooting + RPG mechanics so stop going OT or I'll report you to the admins.

[Lhynn]

I don't think that game really fits this thread, even if there are progression mechanics.

Really nigger? Why dont you define RPG for me then?

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't think that game really fits this thread, even if there are progression mechanics.

Really nigger? Why dont you define RPG for me then?

The difference between an RPG and other genres can be boiled down to this:
If someone gave you advice on how to play the game, and you might psosibly reply with the statement "My character wouldn't do that", you're probably playing a role-playing game.

[WhiteShark]

I don't think that game really fits this thread, even if there are progression mechanics.

Really nigger? Why dont you define RPG for me then?

The difference between an RPG and other genres can be boiled down to this:
If someone gave you advice on how to play the game, and you might psosibly reply with the statement "My character wouldn't do that", you're probably playing a role-playing game.

That's called LARPing and can be done in any game. "My Gordon Freeman wouldn't use that gun." "My knight doesn't do left-forward Ls."

[rusty_shackleford]

Really nigger? Why dont you define RPG for me then?

The difference between an RPG and other genres can be boiled down to this:
If someone gave you advice on how to play the game, and you might psosibly reply with the statement "My character wouldn't do that", you're probably playing a role-playing game.

That's called LARPing and can be done in any game. "My Gordon Freeman wouldn't use that gun." "My knight doesn't do left-forward Ls."

But Gordon Freeman does use guns because he's not your Gordon Freeman.

[GothGirlSupremacy]

My Kain wouldn't turn into a werewolf to jump over this area meant for the werewolf form.

Playthrough ends right there

Heh

[WhiteShark]

The difference between an RPG and other genres can be boiled down to this:
If someone gave you advice on how to play the game, and you might psosibly reply with the statement "My character wouldn't do that", you're probably playing a role-playing game.

That's called LARPing and can be done in any game. "My Gordon Freeman wouldn't use that gun." "My knight doesn't do left-forward Ls."

But Gordon Freeman does use guns because he's not your Gordon Freeman.

He is if I'm the one calling the shots. You can't tell me what my Gordon does and doesn't do.

[Tweed]

Skill system mod for Anomaly Where's your God now?
And a mod for the mod

[Maggot]

I don't think that game really fits this thread, even if there are progression mechanics.

Really nigger? Why dont you define RPG for me then?

I was writing a response, but I ended up deleting it and I'm just gonna call you a fag for even making me try to justify a L4D style knockoff not being an RPG.

[Ratcatcher]

But Gordon Freeman does use guns because he's not your Gordon Freeman.

My Gordon Freeman never used a Snark as a bio weapon. My Gordon Freeman prefers to fill up his pants with living snarks.

Here you go. Half Lfe is now an RPG.