Lies of P

[Eyestabber]

Hello niggers!

So the other day I was exercising my economic freedom to acquire some exquisite gamer girl pee from a trusted website/platform. As I browsed the offerings I noticed my usual supplier, xoxo_PinkUnicornSparkles_06 was unable to supply my demand for the finer things in life. So I had to go with a new supplier. A couple days later the product arrived at my home address BUT since I'm an experienced businessman I decided to send it to my pee-test guy first. Sadly the test results showed me the familiar yellow liquid in a soda bottle was not from a 18 year old Korean girl, but actually from a 54 y/o man in the USA. I was shocked at being a victim of a lie. A lie...of P.

Nah, but srsly, I finished Lies of P today and I say it's a very good game. Yes, I can bitch about the complete linearity of the levels, the weird timings, the parry window being frame perfect, the combat feeling annoying at times, but OVERALL the game has its own charm and does its own thing well enough to be worth playing. I recommend anyone on the fence about it to take the plunge, it's unlikely any Souls enjoyer will feel let down by this one.

[rusty_shackleford]

iirc this is on gamepass if you're one of microshaft's paypigs

[Red7]

damn, this looks so homo @Vergil could use it as his avatar.

edit
wait, its even a dude?

[SoLong]

Nah, but srsly, I finished Lies of P today and I say it's a very good game. Yes, I can bitch about the complete linearity of the levels, the weird timings, the parry window being frame perfect, the combat feeling annoying at times, but OVERALL the game has its own charm and does its own thing well enough to be worth playing. I recommend anyone on the fence about it to take the plunge, it's unlikely any Souls enjoyer will feel let down by this one.

I appreciate that it's something like Soulsborns but with an actual fucking story behind it. You don't have to comb through manuals, in-game books and/or wikis to find out what the fuck happened, the mystery gets resolved very neatly. Which is what minimalist story design is supposed to be like, not this "We'll write nothing and let them guess lol 101!" bullshit that has established itself lately.

[rusty_shackleford]

Do any "souls-like" games even copy anything beyond the combat? I don't think I've ever seen one actually handle NPCs/reactivity like the dork souls games actually do, which is one of their strongest features.
If there's one thing that moves dork souls out of the JRPG genre into RPG, it's not the combat or setting — it's the open ended design that is very uncharacteristic for the JRPG genre.

[edit]
I think someone told me Hollow Knight is similar in a lot of ways but not actually a dork souls clone because the dev never played dork souls or something. Can't remember.

[Goth-Girl-Supremacy]

I am stunned over a decade later that people actually give a shit about Souls games storylines. The people who read the lore of every item or weapon like they're archaeologists uncovering some ancient artifacts and proceed to make 30-45 minute videos on two sentences should not have basic human rights.

[Ratcatcher]

think someone told me Hollow Knight is similar in a lot of ways

Yes it is. Especially if you play the game completely blind. HK is a game that requires commitment, dunno if it's your cup of tea, it's definitely best played with a controller but it's highly enjoyable for its gameplay, exploration and vague soul-like story you need to piece together. It requires even more backtracking than your average souls-like, if you're bound to discover all the secret alone.

If you find it too hard or too long for your taste, another excellent 2d metroidvania that follows similar design principles for worldbuilding and NPCs is Blasphemous. It's far easier to deal with as a game than HK, much less of a commitment but highly enjoyable for the unusual throwbacks and symbolism related to Spanish Catholicism. If you're feeling like trying something in the vein, have a look at it, it's wort for the art direction and music alone imho.

[rusty_shackleford]

Zanzibart… Forgive me…

[H-H-Holmes]

It was acceptable in the 80s. It was acceptable at the time.

[Mairon]

If there's one thing that moves dork souls out of the JRPG genre into RPG, it's not the combat or setting — it's the open ended design that is very uncharacteristic for the JRPG genre.

Agreed, despite their linearity the Souls games give you decent options when it comes to the NPCs who aren't yet insane in the world. You choose who to trust or aid. It can be beneficial, inconsequential, or it can backfire.

[WhiteShark]

despite their linearity

What linearity? Dark Souls mostly lets you wander wherever from the beginning.

[Goth-Girl-Supremacy]

Dark Souls very clearly nudges you into certain directions, especially to a new player.

[Mairon]

It certainly does. I'm not saying it's an on-rails experience but it's not like you can just walk up to end game bosses from the start. The earliest one you can reach is the Four Kings (which for a first time player, you'd have to go through New Londo Ruins and lower the water level, it's pretty unlikely you do this) and the rest are locked behind literal walls until you get the Lordvessel. The first half of the game is more open ended but there is definitely the clear indications of where you should be going first through enemy placement and locked doors.

[WhiteShark]

Dark Souls very clearly nudges you into certain directions, especially to a new player.

Nudging != linearity, and if it did, we'd have to strip nearly every RPG of the 'non-linear' descriptor since they almost all have areas with stronger enemies that ward off new PCs.

the rest are locked behind literal walls until you get the Lordvessel

This is true, which is why I said 'mostly' non-linear. I still think it's ridiculous to call Dark Souls a linear game.

[Goth-Girl-Supremacy]

Nudging != linearity, and if it did, we'd have to strip nearly every RPG of the 'non-linear' descriptor since they almost all have areas with stronger enemies that ward off new PCs.

If we were to tell one another of our first ever playthrough routes I can guarantee you it'd be near identical. It doesn't outright show you markers on a map or give you big text on the screen saying it, but it all leads into one another coherently enough. Not to mention it all eventually funnels into Sen/Anor anyways.

[Shillitron]

Zanzibart… Forgive me…

Lmfao..

--

The lady of the two moons has finally crossed the horizon.. hark thee embersworn first soul of the sun scorned light.. ~he~ will not forget.


BUT WHO IS "HE"!!

"Heh.. well if you read the Japanese text.. He in this context is ahctually a reference to rebirth... which if you read the sword of everlasting truth it clearly states.."

[Ratcatcher]

DS 1 is actually pretty linear in the first half, unless you happen to select the most meta of all parting gifts, the key. Because DS in general is one of the most heavily spoilered franchises ever. Very few people play FromSoft titles 'blind'.

[Vergil]

Dark Souls has benefited pretty heavily from there being an entire industry now of people hyping up it's plot on youtube. How many people would really be big fans of those games if it weren't for the 99 "lore youtubers" dumbing down and free associating plot points?

[Eyestabber]

The only actually non-linear souls title is Dark Souls 2. Pretending otherwise is just cope.

[Mairon]

the rest are locked behind literal walls until you get the Lordvessel

This is true, which is why I said 'mostly' non-linear. I still think it's ridiculous to call Dark Souls a linear game.
[/quote]
Yeah I mean, I don't think it's ridiculous but I definitely see why you disagree. The more I think about linear vs nonlinear the more I want to take back my stance but not entirely. I guess it's the limited scope of Dark Souls that makes it feel less open than something like Elden Ring where you don't even have to fight Margit or Godrick. And those two are probably bad examples as you likely are to do those fights early and it feels mostly intended. But on my second playthrough I didn't want either of their items/souls so I didn't bother fighting them. I just went around the castle onto Liurnia instead. As long as you defeat two shardbearers you can continue on in the game and you can get to a lot of places without ever getting one shard. The parts that feel like the older Souls titles are the "legacy dungeons" which are like Stormveil Castle, Volcano Manor, the Academy, and Leyndell.
Dark Souls won't let you just wander to the end of a map for absolutely nothing. Instead you wander a few meters to the edge of a map and that's it. And it's first half is a giant pretzel that looks at other pretzels like they're sticks.

For context, I see neither linear or non-linear as inherently good or bad. Both are fine as long as they are designed well overall. It's usually a matter of preference for some players. I like both as long as I like the game as a whole.

[wndrbr]

The only actually non-linear souls title is Dark Souls 2. Pretending otherwise is just cope.

Demon's Souls lets you travel to a bunch of different archstones after you clearn Boletaria 1-1, and keeps being relatively open right until the end.

[Element]

I am stunned over a decade later that people actually give a shit about Souls games storylines. The people who read the lore of every item or weapon like they're archaeologists uncovering some ancient artifacts and proceed to make 30-45 minute videos on two sentences should not have basic human rights.

It was fun for DS and BB, when it was still relatively new and you had to figure out what was going on by piecing together the item description etc. Nowadays I just skip it. And From is mostly rehashing the old games to boot.

[Mairon]

And From is mostly rehashing the old games to boot.

Yeah, in essence for sure. The themes are usually very similar. Old guard created the current world or state of affairs and things were fine but eventually they became corrupt due to one reason or another.

► Show Spoiler

Demon's Souls is how the power of soul arts corrupted the king
Dark Souls is how the "gods" prolonged the Age of Fire after overthrowing the gods of the Age of Ancients but fearing the Age of Dark that should or would follow
Dark Souls II is how the king was manipulated by his queen to retrieve some artifact which caused a war because he believed it would stop the "curse" which that curse is the Dark arriving
Bloodborne is Bloodborne. Seriously though The Healing Church practically caused the beasts to exist and then the old hunters and scholars led by Gehrman and Maria slaughtered the Orphan of Kos which caused the Hunter's Nightmare to manifest. Scholars also were going far into trying to find out about the Pthumerians and opening their eyes to the Eldritch gods that ruled them. None of that sounds like a good idea either.
Dark Souls III is everyone has been told to fear the Age of Dark, including the players (how meta!), and how the Age of Fire is corrupting everything since it has been prolonged for so long.
Sekiro is about a nation that is now falling apart. You are a shinobi bodyguard for the prince of this land who has this foreign curse/gift of immortality. Now, a famous warrior of the past's descendant wants to steal the powers of certain things in the land and the prince's blood to fight off invading forces.
Elden Ring is a bunch of rulers who became influenced by Outer Gods and also slaughtered those merchants you see in the game which caused them to seek another Outer God for assistance causing the Frenzied Flame.

I've seen a lot of analysis claim these themes are fairly normal Japanese themes after World War II. There was a lot of change in Japan, obviously. They had always had rulers who controlled even religion and then they participate in a world war and get heavily restricted and influenced by another nation. Elden Ring really, really emphasizes that outer influence corrupting the land part. You see it in other ones, especially Sekiro, but I think Elden Ring really drove that theme more than the others.