Random (M)MORPG thoughts

[rusty_shackleford]

"Bring the player, not the class" ideology has been one of the most destructive ideas cast upon the genre, destroying class identity across multiple games. Thanks, Blizzard.

Of the big class-based MMOs(WoW, SWTOR, ESO, GW2), I don't think a single one actually has classes with real identity, just different animations and colors.

[Tweed]

Classes should go the route of SS13 where each role requires weeks if not months of practice to learn properly with heavy gatekeeping to stop bad players from ruining things.

[rusty_shackleford]

Guitar hero combat isn't fun. If all an ability does is do damage, it shouldn't require a separate button press.

[Tweed]

Galaxy brains want to feel like they're interacting when they fight so developers force them to push lots of buttons.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

"Bring the player, not the class" ideology has been one of the most destructive ideas cast upon the genre, destroying class identity across multiple games. Thanks, Blizzard.

Of the big class-based MMOs(WoW, SWTOR, ESO, GW2), I don't think a single one actually has classes with real identity, just different animations and colors.

WoW and GW2 classes still have some identity. In WoW, warlocks for example can summon other players, lay down demonic gateways other players can use to traverse a long distance, and give healthstones to other players. Rogues can give mass stealth to a group, allowing them to bypass mobs or cloak a PvP group. Priests can yank players who are out of position and can continue healing for a bit after they've died. Evoker is a support class that buffs other players and has a lot of knockbacks. Etc. In GW2, mesmers can create portals and jump pads other players can use to traverse the environment. Engineers can mass stealth a group. Elementalists can create magic weapons that other players can pick up and use. Etc.

If you want an example of an MMO with total class homogeneity, look at FF14. All unique class identity was ripped out of the game in Stormblood and Shadowbringers. The only vaguely unique job utility in FF14 is Red Mage's ability to quickly rez a party due to their Dualcast trait, but this doesn't matter because on any content higher than normal difficulty since there is a hard enrage timer you won't beat if even a couple DPS die.

The reason why "bring the player not the class" became an issue in the first place has to do with the death of community. In oldschool MMOs, you needed be a part of a guild or a linkshell to do large group content like raids, and the low amount of loot dropping (1-2 pieces per boss) meant that not everyone was going to get loot in one night, so they had to stick it out as a part of the group over the course of a long time. So people would be attending raid nights even if they didn't stand to get anything, because they were building up the group as a whole. The content also required a lot of bodies and was also easy enough that it didn't matter which classes you brought, you just brought who you could. Even if someone was playing a "subpar" class you still brought them because he was your guildmate and you needed bodies. But then raid sizes shrunk, raids became more difficult, and LFR happened so players didn't need to be a part of a guild anymore to get loot, so that leads to the mercenary mentality of today where everyone views each other as an impediment to getting their loot. So when they see a "subpar class", they don't think "oh hey that's my guildmate", they think "that guy is an impediment to me getting the loot I want".

Guitar hero combat isn't fun. If all an ability does is do damage, it shouldn't require a separate button press.

Agreed. Having to constantly press 6 different buttons to deal damage, with each button feeling like it hits for a wet noodle isn't fun.

[rusty_shackleford]

"horizontal progression" should be about needing certain gear to overcome new obstacles, getting new abilities, items with unique effects, etc., Not about getting gear that is functionally identical to what you already have but has a ~new cosmetic~, just laziness

also, DDO probably has one of the better gearing systems due to it being a houseruled version of 3.5e. Preventing bonus stacking of the same 'type' was one of the 'genius' things from 3.5e that should have been copied by other games.

[Kalarion]

"horizontal progression" should be about needing certain gear to overcome new obstacles, getting new abilities, items with unique effects, etc., Not about getting gear that is functionally identical to what you already have but has a ~new cosmetic~, just laziness

I've said this before, I'm going to say it again. FF XI did an absolutely phenomenal job with horizontal progression, came closest to nailing it of any game I've seen. For 4 straight expansions, progression went only slowly vertical. The level cap went up one time, with the first expansion (from 60 to 70). Then it stayed there for 3 expansions. Instead, more and more items/class abilities came out that allowed specialized improvement. You had items for standard combat, items for generating Tactical Points, items for casting types of magic (healing set, Dark set, Elemental set, a set for overcoming resistance etc), items for tradecrafting, items for using Weaponskills...

One thing that helped the items themselves stand out is that they were obviously made to do one thing well. Almost all of the end-game, best-in-slot gear actually had maluses, and in many cases very heavy maluses, that deeply affected their ability to fit into any other role. The Hecatomb set was generally excellent for using Weaponskills because of its high STR, DEX, Acc and Atk bonuses. But it was terrible for standard combat/building TP because each piece came with a slowing penalty. What other MMORPG made itemization decisions like that?!

Loved that game so much until Wings came out.

[rusty_shackleford]

MMOs that have levels just to have levels. If your entire game is designed around rushing to the max level, then just cut out the middleman and get rid of levels.

[rusty_shackleford]

Limitation is the spark of creativity. EQ's spell gems were great, and WoW moving away from them was bad and contributed a lot to ability bloat. Post-WoW MMOs that moved back towards limitation in active abilities is something that never gets praised but deserves it. I think a lot of this comes from it being popularized by GW1.

OTOH, I have a hatred for weapon swapping. Every game that uses it requires you to use it, I just don't like switching between what weapon I'm attacking with every 2 seconds.

[Tweed]

Getting an AA for an extra spell gem was earth shattering.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

OTOH, I have a hatred for weapon swapping. Every game that uses it requires you to use it, I just don't like switching between what weapon I'm attacking with every 2 seconds.

I like weapon swapping. It's nice to be able to switch between a melee greatsword or a longbow depending upon the situation, or just have two different favorite weapons rather than having to pick between the two. The constant weapon swap spam is the result of games being designed around "rotations", ie using abilities on cooldown to maximize DPS, but MMOs don't have to be designed that way. I'm not a fan of "rotations" and spamming lots of different abilities on cooldown in general.

[Goth-Girl-Supremacy]

The topic of backpedaling WoW Night Elf Hunters here.

[Anon]

OSRS is the only (big) mmorpg in the market that still has an mmorpg soul.

[BLofbr]

I have played Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning, theres a private server if someone want to check it out, i dont play it that much anymore because devs made it fkking grindy.

Source: https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/

Dont know where to put it for a Good MMORPGS thread.

Edit: FYI its a Realm vs Realm, like DAOC, GW so its very based on PVP concept.


Edit ill just jewtube too.

[Nooneatall]

How about an mmorpg that gates content around reading walls of text and walking from one npc to the next? Some of the walls of text and cutscenes are good but most are just boring filler. I'm talking about FF14.
Want to run the ivalice raid? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Want to go to the farming island to play the mini games? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Next npc you need to talk to is 10 miles that way, you can't use your mount in here.

[WaterMage]

In 90s, Ultima Online, Meridian 59 and EQ where vastly different. Now, every mmo looks the same.

I wanna to play Dark Sun Online : Crimson Sands. I don't care about mindless gear farming cooldown managing with zero consistency between gameplay and lore.

[Oyster Sauce]

How about an mmorpg that gates content around reading walls of text and walking from one npc to the next? Some of the walls of text and cutscenes are good but most are just boring filler. I'm talking about FF14.
Want to run the ivalice raid? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Want to go to the farming island to play the mini games? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Next npc you need to talk to is 10 miles that way, you can't use your mount in here.

Good, dialogue skippers get the rope.

[Nooneatall]

How about an mmorpg that gates content around reading walls of text and walking from one npc to the next? Some of the walls of text and cutscenes are good but most are just boring filler. I'm talking about FF14.
Want to run the ivalice raid? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Want to go to the farming island to play the mini games? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Next npc you need to talk to is 10 miles that way, you can't use your mount in here.

Good, dialogue skippers get the rope.

I'll gladly skip that boring gook dialog. Half of it is bullshit anime nonsense.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

How about an mmorpg that gates content around reading walls of text and walking from one npc to the next? Some of the walls of text and cutscenes are good but most are just boring filler. I'm talking about FF14.
Want to run the ivalice raid? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Want to go to the farming island to play the mini games? Too bad, go watch 10 hours of cutscenes.
Next npc you need to talk to is 10 miles that way, you can't use your mount in here.

I enjoy FFXIV as a singleplayer JRPG/VN but you're right that it is frustrating if you want to play it as an MMO with friends. There is very little content in the game worth doing with friends. Grinding in Eureka or Bozja for relic weapons, or doing Deep Dungeon for titles, and that's pretty much it. You can't even queue for ranked PvP together! And ofcourse, it is gated by the 400+ hour long visual novel story, which makes it hard to recommend to people. "Oh, you can't really do anything worthwhile with me until after you've been playing every day for two or three." Whereas with WoW, a new player can just buy in, use their free boost to create a level 60 character, level to 70 over the weekend, and then you can be running mythic+ dungeons or RBGs together. Or GW2, where your friend can create their new character and you can both be immediately be playing together doing events in the vanilla zones or queuing for PvP with all abilities unlocked.

I'll gladly skip that boring gook dialog. Half of it is bullshit anime nonsense.

I didn't find FFXIV's dialogue annoying to read until the ShB patches, when the heroes started becoming sanctimonious and preachy.

[asf]

imagine reading mumbo jumbo game 'writers' write these days

[Decline]

ITT Rusty discovers that MMORPGs are indeed bad.

[junior]

FF14 is not an mmo.

[Manny V]

I have played Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning, theres a private server if someone want to check it out, i dont play it that much anymore because devs made it fkking grindy.

Source: https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/

Dont know where to put it for a Good MMORPGS thread.

Edit: FYI its a Realm vs Realm, like DAOC, GW so its very based on PVP concept.


Edit ill just jewtube too.

been playing Age of Reckoning on and off the past few months, good shit
jank, and i'm not big on the heavy PvP focus, but i'm a sucker for anything Warhammer Fantasy so ye

nice to see community projects like this though where people pick up the games that the devs abandoned and keep it alive

[rusty_shackleford]

The lack of any persistently online RPGs being made is soul-crushing tbh
maybe 5 new (M)MOs made in the past half-decade

offline RPGs just aren't the same

[LemonDemonGirl]

WoW having a "cash shop" is completely fine. FF14 has one and it's doing well.

[rusty_shackleford]

WoW having a "cash shop" is completely fine. FF14 has one and it's doing well.

Having a cash shop and a subscription AND charging to buy the game is fucked
They're just triple-dipping at that point

[Anon]

WoW having a "cash shop" is completely fine. FF14 has one and it's doing well.

Having a cash shop and a subscription AND charging to buy the game is fucked
They're just triple-dipping at that point

That's the mmorpg dilemma btw. It has very high maintenance costs but the population very resistant to fucked up monetization, as they should be. But that naturally makes it not that much attractive for companies to be willing to create new ones, especially now that you can also push microtransactions in single-player games.

[rusty_shackleford]

That's the mmorpg dilemma btw. It has very high maintenance costs but the population very resistant to fucked up monetization, as they should be. But that naturally makes it not that much attractive for companies to be willing to create new ones, especially now that you can also push microtransactions in single-player games.

I'd be shocked if more than 10% of WoW's revenue actually went back into the product itself in terms of development.
At its peak it was making so much money they should have had multiple teams releasing content simultaneously every week.

[Anon]

Yes but WoW is already established in the market. The issue is with creating new ones.

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes but WoW is already established in the market. The issue is with creating new ones.

You could just make Totally-Not-Everquest with less than $100k in funding and be a gorillionaire. Look at all the hype monsters and memories has, and that's all it is. The expectations are so incredibly low, and the current developers can't meet it.