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IME sci-fi and fantasy/other fluff is fine via audiobook, but metaphysics and other technical work requires the visual aspect for proper memory logging. Reminds me of Year 9 maths, where everyone really liked the teacher, but he gave us the class notes via printouts, instead of making us write it down in our textbooks like the years before, which caused massively deflated scores in the end of year exams despite him being a great teacher.

ManjuShri wrote: ↑ April 27th, 2024, 02:33
IME sci-fi and fantasy/other fluff is fine via audiobook, but metaphysics and other technical work requires the visual aspect for proper memory logging. Reminds me of Year 9 maths, where everyone really liked the teacher, but he gave us the class notes via printouts, instead of making us write it down in our textbooks like the years before, which caused massively deflated scores in the end of year exams despite him being a great teacher.

I'd have a lot of trouble following along if I just listened, but maybe it's because Vance is so flowery with his words and very otherworldly in his descriptions.

Sometimes I feed the descriptions into ChatGPT's image maker to see what it makes.

Guyal said no word. Across the lake he noticed a trio of the crescent boats approaching the docks, prows and sterns rocking and dipping into the shaded water with a graceful motion. The void in his mind made itself , known. "Why are boats constructed in such fashion?"

The Castellan looked blankly at him. "It is the only practicable method. Do not the oe-pods grow thusly to the south?"

"Never have I seen oe-pods."

"They are the fruit of a great vine, and grow in scimitar-shape. When sufficiently large, we cut and clean them, slit the inner edge, grapple end to end with strong line and constrict till the pod opens as is desirable.

Then when cured, dried, varnished, carved, burnished, and lacquered; fitted with deck, thwarts and gussets—then have we our boats."

watercolor image as painted by a master painter

Amusing to see words on Wiktionary where the only quote is from Vance
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scintillant

And finished with the first compilation(The Dying Earth, 1950.) Excellent. Vance is flowery with his prose, but not overly wordy to get details across. It's truly reading something that cannot be made anymore.
This is an out of context quote, but from near the end of Guyal of Sfere, so I'm going to spoil it:

► Show Spoiler

Another example, this passage is very information dense:

► Show Spoiler

So through the banks they went, like roaches in a maze, and behind drifted the cage of light with the wailing ghost At last they entered a chamber smelling of metal; again Kerlin instructed Guyal and Guyal called, "Attend us, Lumen, attend!"

Through intricate devices walked the three, Guyal lost and rapt beyond inquiry, even though his brain ached with the want of knowing.

At a tall booth Kerlin halted the cage of light. A pane of vitrean dropped before the ghost. "Observe now," Kerlin said, and manipulated the activants.

They saw the ghost, depicted and projected: the flowing robe, the haggard visage. The face grew large, flattened; a segment under the vacant eye became a scabrous white place. It separated into pustules, and a single pustule swelled to fill the pane. The crater of the pustule was an intricate stippled surface, a mesh as of fabric, knit in a lacy pattern.

"Behold!" said Shierl. "He is a thing woven as if by thread."

Guyal turned eagerly to Kerlin; Kerlin raised a finger for silence.

"Indeed, indeed, a goodly thought, especially since here beside us is a rotor of extreme swiftness, used in reeling the cognitive filaments of the cases . . . Now then observe: I reach to this panel, I select a mesh, I withdraw a thread, and note! The meshes ravel and loosen and part. And now to the bobbin on the rotor, and I wrap the thread, and now with a twist we have the cincture made ..."

Shierl said dubiously, "Does not the ghost observe and note your doing?"

"By no means," asserted Kerlin. "The pane of vitrean shields our actions; he is too exercised to attend. And now I dissolve the cage and he is free."

The ghost wandered forth, cringing from the light.

"Go!" cried Kerlin. "Back to your genetrix; back, return and go!"

The ghost departed. Kerlin said to Guyal, "Follow; find when Blikdak snuffs him up."

Guyal at a cautious distance watched the ghost seep up into the black nostril, and returned to where Kerlin waited by the rotor. "The ghost has once more become part of Blikdak."

"Now then," 'said Kerlin, "we cause the rotor to twist, the bobbin to whirl, and we shall observe."

The rotor whirled to a blur; the bobbin (as long as Guyal's arm) became spun with ghost-thread, at first glowing pastel polychrome, then nacre, then line milk-ivory.

The rotor spun, a million times a minute, and the thread drawn unseen and unknown from Blikdak thickened on the bobbin.

The rotor spun; the bobbin was full—a cylinder shining with glossy silken sheen. Kerlin slowed the rotor; Guyal snapped a new bobbin into place, and the unraveling of Blikdak continued.

You should read it if you haven't. If it were up to me, every teenage student would be required to read this as part of a class on important fictional works.

I'm reading Shadow of the Torturer.

I'm nearly finished with SotT, only six or so pages left. I wish I'd read them sooner, but there's so much else to read. Anyhow, I liked everything, but the Garden sequence was too long, and I understand the author wanted to place Urth in our world with the jungle encounter, but it was boring and stayed too long. EVERYTHING but the Garden and the leading up to the flower combat was great, as in 8/10 to 9/10. The worldbuilding is perfectly executed, leaving so much to the imagination that I feel lost, and so I needed to keep reading for more. The narrator can list too many fancy words, sometimes. Its always welcome seeing new words and guessing, or sometimes looking up, their meaning, but there are a few times where he lists them like "look at how many words for boat I know". 8/10 book, really just didn't like from after he kissed Agia the first time, through the flower combat. I'd have handled it differently.

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 10:27
The narrator can list too many fancy words, sometimes. Its always welcome seeing new words and guessing, or sometimes looking up, their meaning, but there are a few times where he lists them like "look at how many words for boat I know".

Wolfe was probably the smartest writer of the past 100 years. I don't know of anyone else who wrote books where you can come away with a completely different story and meaning by reading it again. And almost everything he wrote is like that.

► Show Spoiler

Acrux wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:02

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 10:27
The narrator can list too many fancy words, sometimes. Its always welcome seeing new words and guessing, or sometimes looking up, their meaning, but there are a few times where he lists them like "look at how many words for boat I know".
Wolfe was probably the smartest writer of the past 100 years. I don't know of anyone else who wrote books where you can come away with a completely different story and meaning by reading it again. And almost everything he wrote is like that.

► Show Spoiler
Severian lied about a lot of things, obviously. I read somewhere that a lot of the times the big or obscure words he uses seem really strange to us but would have been common to him. They are often words about torture instruments or body parts or how a body reacts to things. The effect makes him sound smarter than he is - but he is really smart. I forget what the reasoning was for the boat words, but it was something similar.

► Show Spoiler

It doesn't matter

I was tempted to buy the Lexicon Urthus, but I don't want to rob my imagination. I love going with the flow, and Wolfe gives me that.

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 10:27
The narrator can list too many fancy words, sometimes. Its always welcome seeing new words and guessing, or sometimes looking up, their meaning, but there are a few times where he lists them like "look at how many words for boat I know".

At some point, there were too many archaic words that it felt like a waste of time to look them up each time. The advice I received was to use context clues and not let the words slow me down.

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:17

Acrux wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:02

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 10:27
The narrator can list too many fancy words, sometimes. Its always welcome seeing new words and guessing, or sometimes looking up, their meaning, but there are a few times where he lists them like "look at how many words for boat I know".
Wolfe was probably the smartest writer of the past 100 years. I don't know of anyone else who wrote books where you can come away with a completely different story and meaning by reading it again. And almost everything he wrote is like that.

► Show Spoiler
Severian lied about a lot of things, obviously. I read somewhere that a lot of the times the big or obscure words he uses seem really strange to us but would have been common to him. They are often words about torture instruments or body parts or how a body reacts to things. The effect makes him sound smarter than he is - but he is really smart. I forget what the reasoning was for the boat words, but it was something similar.

► Show Spoiler
I wonder if Severian is lying or if he is the conjuration of Father Inire.
It doesn't matter

I was tempted to buy the Lexicon Urthus, but I don't want to rob my imagination. I love going with the flow, and Wolfe gives me that.

The most difficult time I had with all of Wolfe's books was realizing that he was writing real people with heroic characteristics, and not heroic archetypes. Which meant, people who were great, who were wonderful, who were used by God for Earth-shattering acts. But they were also perfectly capable of committing, or being roped into, the most heinous evils.

Severian, Silk, Horn, Latro, Able - none of them are free of tarnish.

It makes re-readings incredibly satisfying.

Kalarion wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 00:05

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:17

Acrux wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:02

Wolfe was probably the smartest writer of the past 100 years. I don't know of anyone else who wrote books where you can come away with a completely different story and meaning by reading it again. And almost everything he wrote is like that.

► Show Spoiler
Severian lied about a lot of things, obviously. I read somewhere that a lot of the times the big or obscure words he uses seem really strange to us but would have been common to him. They are often words about torture instruments or body parts or how a body reacts to things. The effect makes him sound smarter than he is - but he is really smart. I forget what the reasoning was for the boat words, but it was something similar.

► Show Spoiler
I wonder if Severian is lying or if he is the conjuration of Father Inire.
It doesn't matter

I was tempted to buy the Lexicon Urthus, but I don't want to rob my imagination. I love going with the flow, and Wolfe gives me that.
The most difficult time I had with all of Wolfe's books was realizing that he was writing real people with heroic characteristics, and not heroic archetypes. Which meant, people who were great, who were wonderful, who were used by God for Earth-shattering acts. But they were also perfectly capable of committing, or being roped into, the most heinous evils.

Severian, Silk, Horn, Latro, Able - none of them are free of tarnish.

It makes re-readings incredibly satisfying.

How filled with rape are they? Is it like explicit scenes? I want to read them but if they have cringe game of thrones stuff or Japanese misery porn I'll pass. If it's filled with badass men pillaging and killing I'm for it though. What's a good book to start with?

The Book of Urmom

Nooneatall wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 01:12
How filled with rape are they? Is it like explicit scenes? I want to read them but if they have cringe game of thrones stuff or Japanese misery porn I'll pass. If it's filled with badass men pillaging and killing I'm for it though. What's a good book to start with?

read them in order
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun

Nooneatall wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 01:12

Kalarion wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 00:05

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:17

► Show Spoiler
I wonder if Severian is lying or if he is the conjuration of Father Inire.
It doesn't matter

I was tempted to buy the Lexicon Urthus, but I don't want to rob my imagination. I love going with the flow, and Wolfe gives me that.
The most difficult time I had with all of Wolfe's books was realizing that he was writing real people with heroic characteristics, and not heroic archetypes. Which meant, people who were great, who were wonderful, who were used by God for Earth-shattering acts. But they were also perfectly capable of committing, or being roped into, the most heinous evils.

Severian, Silk, Horn, Latro, Able - none of them are free of tarnish.

It makes re-readings incredibly satisfying.
How filled with rape are they? Is it like explicit scenes? I want to read them but if they have cringe game of thrones stuff or Japanese misery porn I'll pass. If it's filled with badass men pillaging and killing I'm for it though. What's a good book to start with?

Wolfe is the anti-Martin.

Rape scenes are rare, and nothing explicit (at least to my memory). As Kalarion says, they are heroic characters who are capable of doing terrible things. They don't do those terrible things often, and feel bad when they do.

The Wizard Knight is probably his most accessible book, but not his best IMO. Book of the New Sun is a good place to start, too. Just be prepared - Wolfe's books are dense. Every word he uses is carefully chosen.

Nooneatall wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 01:12

Kalarion wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 00:05

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 3rd, 2024, 11:17

► Show Spoiler
I wonder if Severian is lying or if he is the conjuration of Father Inire.
It doesn't matter

I was tempted to buy the Lexicon Urthus, but I don't want to rob my imagination. I love going with the flow, and Wolfe gives me that.
The most difficult time I had with all of Wolfe's books was realizing that he was writing real people with heroic characteristics, and not heroic archetypes. Which meant, people who were great, who were wonderful, who were used by God for Earth-shattering acts. But they were also perfectly capable of committing, or being roped into, the most heinous evils.

Severian, Silk, Horn, Latro, Able - none of them are free of tarnish.

It makes re-readings incredibly satisfying.
How filled with rape are they? Is it like explicit scenes? I want to read them but if they have cringe game of thrones stuff or Japanese misery porn I'll pass. If it's filled with badass men pillaging and killing I'm for it though. What's a good book to start with?

They aren't. From what I remember - and it's been almost a decade now, I really need to re-read all of them - there are a total of three instances. One is implied ongoing rape at the beginning of Shadow of the Torturer (and implication is as far as it goes, although the implication is pretty heavy). Another is an explicit rape in book two of the Book of the Short Sun (on Green's Waters), although it's not described in excruciating detail beyond stating it happened. The final instance (and the worst, especially because of the circumstances of the book's protagonist) occurs in Soldier of Arete, where a Spartan is shown to be raping a young boy in a terrible pedophiliac relationship. Again the rape is not given detail, it's just made very clear that it's occurring.

Kalarion wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 01:51

Nooneatall wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 01:12

Kalarion wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 00:05

The most difficult time I had with all of Wolfe's books was realizing that he was writing real people with heroic characteristics, and not heroic archetypes. Which meant, people who were great, who were wonderful, who were used by God for Earth-shattering acts. But they were also perfectly capable of committing, or being roped into, the most heinous evils.

Severian, Silk, Horn, Latro, Able - none of them are free of tarnish.

It makes re-readings incredibly satisfying.
How filled with rape are they? Is it like explicit scenes? I want to read them but if they have cringe game of thrones stuff or Japanese misery porn I'll pass. If it's filled with badass men pillaging and killing I'm for it though. What's a good book to start with?
They aren't. From what I remember - and it's been almost a decade now, I really need to re-read all of them - there are a total of three instances. One is implied ongoing rape at the beginning of Shadow of the Torturer (and implication is as far as it goes, although the implication is pretty heavy). Another is an explicit rape in book two of the Book of the Short Sun (on Green's Waters), although it's not described in excruciating detail beyond stating it happened. The final instance (and the worst, especially because of the circumstances of the book's protagonist) occurs in Soldier of Arete, where a Spartan is shown to be raping a young boy in a terrible pedophiliac relationship. Again the rape is not given detail, it's just made very clear that it's occurring.

I've started reading the first book.

How's The Book of the Long Sun and The Book of the Short Sun?

ManjuShri wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 03:09
How's The Book of the Long Sun and The Book of the Short Sun?

Long and short, with many archaic words peppered throughout the books. They're interesting books that get better with every reading.

Should I read Vance's The Eyes of the Overworld next or Wolfe's Book of the New Sun?

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 16:07
Should I read Vance's The Eyes of the Overworld next or Wolfe's Book of the New Sun?

Nylund's The Fall of Reach

"David Gemmell"

Seconded.

Anything from him is good.

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ May 5th, 2024, 16:07
Should I read Vance's The Eyes of the Overworld next or Wolfe's Book of the New Sun?

Eyes of the Overworld is my favourite of the Dying Earth series. If you're going to take a break, do it after that, as the next book is another Cugel story.

@Wretch have not seen you around in a while, but I wanted to let you know I finally found the book you advised me to read

► Show Spoiler

I am unsure how long will it take me to finish, I usually read books at my own pace (and honestly, I sometimes re-read pages just because I like reading in general), but I will let you know how I found it if I can finish it. God willing, I will have enough time. Even if you might not be active or around anymore, I will do as I said I would and keep it public in case it might help others find interest in this book or find some use in this.

DagothGeas5 wrote: ↑ May 9th, 2024, 13:41
@Wretch have not seen you around in a while,

He's gone since the "indignant priest" role he was playing got played out.

PS: Good luck reading that book

Irenaeus wrote: ↑ May 9th, 2024, 14:19

DagothGeas5 wrote: ↑ May 9th, 2024, 13:41
@Wretch have not seen you around in a while,
He's gone since the "indignant priest" role he was playing got played out.

PS: Good luck reading that book

Thank you

Finished The Burgundians a Vanished Empire by Bart Van Loo, pretty good book occasionally bogged down by the typical problems of modern historical writing like the author feeling the need to talk (thankfully not for very long) about Jean D'arc being the first feminist or speculation that Charles le Téméraire might have been gay. Mostly it was quite enjoyable though and a good overview of the important bits of Burgundian history and would recommend overall.

Also read The Thirty Years War by C. V. Wedgwood was just quality all around, no complaints at all and a hearty recommendation. I don't even have much to say because it was just a great book about an interesting time period and covered it all quite efficiently.

i wish i had not wasted so much time in youth reading books like only couple of them had useful shit in them
just bad for eye sight

that being said, while u guys read all the stuff, how about u write if u learn something in most compact/practical format possible. there is saying if book/sience paper cannot be summarized to 1 or 2 pages of data its probably trash.

Red7 wrote: ↑ May 11th, 2024, 07:01
i wish i had not wasted so much time in youth reading books like only couple of them had useful shit in them
just bad for eye sight

that being said, while u guys read all the stuff, how about u write if u learn something in most compact/practical format possible. there is saying if book/sience paper cannot be summarized to 1 or 2 pages of data its probably trash.

I've written many science papers and published hundreds of books on advice for young, fatherless men.

maidenhaver wrote: ↑ May 12th, 2024, 11:56

Red7 wrote: ↑ May 11th, 2024, 07:01
i wish i had not wasted so much time in youth reading books like only couple of them had useful shit in them
just bad for eye sight

that being said, while u guys read all the stuff, how about u write if u learn something in most compact/practical format possible. there is saying if book/sience paper cannot be summarized to 1 or 2 pages of data its probably trash.
I've written many science papers and published hundreds of books on advice for young, fatherless men.

jordan peterstein made millions of this scam gig

The Swarm really is 1800 pages...bloody hell.

I too will write a novel.

It will be called The Pencil.

A young man will be playing with a pencil, which he will stick up his nose.
But damn, then it's stuck. He can't get it out.
A young woman will try to help him get the pencil out. But she will fail.
The pencil will be stuck up her nose too, courtesy of her lack of pencil skill.
Flashbacks to her youth when she always used a pen.
Then they will walk around like that. Many adventures will happen.
They will ask people to help them get the pencil out.
But because they have a pencil up their noses, hence talk funny (and, stuck together, walk funny) people will just laugh at them.
So they won't help them.
They find true love. Tragically, however, in each case, it's somebody else.
A thousand pages later the pencil will still be up both their noses.
But it will not matter, because the bridge they are finally walking on will tragically collapse. Because they live in china or something, which is the big twist and reveal.

"Gimme my Stephen King money" like some guy said.

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