Random (M)MORPG thoughts

[Anon]

Nostalgia is overhyped. If the game doesn't have any quality, people will soon hate it and abandon it, as recently seen with Ravendawn. And such things are easier said than done. Will you really only spend $100k in building an MMORPG from scratch, with development, servers, infrastructure, publicity etc. costs? I highly doubt it. Plus you'll have to manage servers and a staff forever, which is also expensive.

Why wouldn't I just develop a shitty mobile game with 1/10th of the costs and no risk to bait some rich chinks instead?

[rusty_shackleford]

Nostalgia is overhyped.

Don't you play OSRS?

Will you really only spend $100k in building an MMORPG from scratch, with development, servers, infrastructure, publicity etc. costs? I highly doubt it.

https://monstersandmemories.com/costs

We’ve spent just under $70,000 dollars on the development of Monsters & Memories (2020-2023).

[Anon]

Nostalgia is overhyped.

Don't you play OSRS?

Will you really only spend $100k in building an MMORPG from scratch, with development, servers, infrastructure, publicity etc. costs? I highly doubt it.

https://monstersandmemories.com/costs

We’ve spent just under $70,000 dollars on the development of Monsters & Memories (2020-2023).

I didn't even play much runescape in my childhood/teens, so nostalgia isn't a factor here. But even if it was, osrs has enough quality to back it an maintain people playing the game, if it didn't it would have what, 20% of the players it has today, or less. Plus it's an already established title as I mentioned.

I've never even heard about this game, so I question whether it'll be really this successful. Plus it hasn't even finished development yet, so that number is inaccurate.

But anyway, Project Gorgon is already a solid precedent for what you're trying to convey, and we're seeing how well it's going...

[rusty_shackleford]

I didn't even play much runescape in my childhood/teens, so nostalgia isn't a factor here.

That's the entire point. Those games aren't good because of "nostalgia", they were just good. Most of the people playing WoW classic were probably in diapers when it released.

But anyway, Project Gorgon is already a solid precedent for what you're trying to convey, and it shows that I'm right.

PG is awesome but it's completely unfinished despite being in early access for years.

[Anon]

I didn't even play much runescape in my childhood/teens, so nostalgia isn't a factor here.

That's the entire point. Those games aren't good because of "nostalgia", they were just good. Most of the people playing WoW classic were probably in diapers when it released.

But anyway, Project Gorgon is already a solid precedent for what you're trying to convey, and it shows that I'm right.

PG is awesome but it's completely unfinished despite being in early access for years.

Yes I completely agree with that, that's why I said nostalgia is overhyped. I guess I more precisely meant "overrated". Nostalgia is only useful for driving a sizeable starting community, but if there isn't quality to back it up most people will just leave, like happened with Ravendawn.

Yes because developing MMORPG is a nightmare. You not only need to develop content, you need to develop it in a way that it's always balanced and absolutely free of any bug or ways that people can abuse and completely destroy the economy and disrupt the community. Any MMO developed by a small team will forever be unfinished, unless you make it in an extremely small scale (which will then have people finishing the game fast and dropping, and totally won't be like everquest).

[Anon]

Btw to not say I'm only a pessimistic doomer an MMO in which I have good hopes and I'm hyped for release is Eternal Tombs.

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't even really want an MMORPG, I'd be fine with a Warframe-like game where it's just a persistently online world. Offline games just cater to the singular narrative arc, online games are much more continuous adventure.
Offline games are like the rise of the campaigns in tabletop vs older sandbox style play where you just decide to do things because you can rather than follow a narrative the DM put in front of you.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Btw to not say I'm only a pessimistic doomer an MMO in which I have good hopes and I'm hyped for release is Eternal Tombs.

"Bonestitcher - Morticians at heart, Bonestitchers harvest body parts, blood and fluids from enemies to heal their friends, rot away the flesh of their enemies in disease and gut them alive."
Nice. Too bad this looks like a 'Human-only' MMO

[Dead]

Can't they just make something like Ultima Online with modern graphics

[Anon]

I don't even really want an MMORPG, I'd be fine with a Warframe-like game where it's just a persistently online world. Offline games just cater to the singular narrative arc, online games are much more continuous adventure.
Offline games are like the rise of the campaigns in tabletop vs older sandbox style play where you just decide to do things because you can rather than follow a narrative the DM put in front of you.

EVE Online or Albion?

There's also Star Citizen, even though it's forever in development.

I liked Haven and Hearth, but sadly it's p2w nowadays

Btw to not say I'm only a pessimistic doomer an MMO in which I have good hopes and I'm hyped for release is Eternal Tombs.

"Bonestitcher - Morticians at heart, Bonestitchers harvest body parts, blood and fluids from enemies to heal their friends, rot away the flesh of their enemies in disease and gut them alive."
Nice. Too bad this looks like a 'Human-only' MMO

Yes some aspects will put people off like only having humans, but I think it's still worth the try, not many promising MMORPGs releasing nowadays

[rusty_shackleford]

EVE Online or Albion?

albion is just an empty sandbox, don't understand how anyone finds it fun tbh

[Xenich]

The lack of any persistently online RPGs being made is soul-crushing tbh
maybe 5 new (M)MOs made in the past half-decade

offline RPGs just aren't the same

Hold on now, Pantheon is just around the corner you know! Just another 10 years in pre-alpha, then another 10 in alpha, 10 in pre-beta, then 10 in beta, 10 in pre-release, then it will be out! Sheesh, you people are just spoiled! Developing an MMO is hard work!

Sure, EQ only took 3 years with a team of 11 people who had to create their own engine, innovate their own net code and essentially create their product without a lot of examples or past projects to guide them, but they were amateurs who didn't know how hard making a game is!

[Xenich]

EVE Online or Albion?

albion is just an empty sandbox, don't understand how anyone finds it fun tbh

What we need is an MMO designed for a private server market. No, not like the survival MMOs or the complexities of trying to gimmick an existing MMO, but an official release.

That is, imagine if an MMO was designed with all the frills of a normal MMO release, but... was released with a suite of tools to run your own server and modify it to your tastes. The company could release development packages for it which would allow for new features, customizations, models, artwork, etc... as well as new client release packages, but the tools would be developed with a more user friendly front end where a non-developer could manage it without having to be an actual software developer, but more of learning the software and its tools like a server admin would.

The game could be released with various server licenses for the number of clients allowed to connect to it and controlled under various levels of that licensing so the company would still retain all legal rights to the game itself. The options are limitless in how you do it. There could even be levels licensing to allow a hosting server to charge subscriptions and get support from the development company, or it could be a setup that disallows it, etc... there really is no limits to how you could release it and monetize the product

As a profitable venture, it could do well, but even if it didn't have that level of implementation, developing new tools, content packages, etc... for the server would be a sufficient income stream I think.

The benefit is that hosting it yourself might be profitable in the beginning, but you would already have a model to pull out and let the market take over, or... you could just host from a demo perspective to display the new releases, features, and content packages being released.

I always wanted to see MMOs going into the style of market like this. There are so many ways you could approach it, that some model could be developed that would be effective as well as successful in a business venture.

[rusty_shackleford]

EVE Online or Albion?

albion is just an empty sandbox, don't understand how anyone finds it fun tbh

What we need is an MMO designed for a private server market. No, not like the survival MMOs or the complexities of trying to gimmick an existing MMO, but an official release.

That is, imagine if an MMO was designed with all the frills of a normal MMO release, but... was released with a suite of tools to run your own server and modify it to your tastes. The company could release development packages for it which would allow for new features, customizations, models, artwork, etc... as well as new client release packages, but the tools would be developed with a more user friendly front end where a non-developer could manage it without having to be an actual software developer, but more of learning the software and its tools like a server admin would.

The game could be released with various server licenses for the number of clients allowed to connect to it and controlled under various levels of that licensing so the company would still retain all legal rights to the game itself. The options are limitless in how you do it. There could even be levels licensing to allow a hosting server to charge subscriptions and get support from the development company, or it could be a setup that disallows it, etc... there really is no limits to how you could release it and monetize the product

As a profitable venture, it could do well, but even if it didn't have that level of implementation, developing new tools, content packages, etc... for the server would be a sufficient income stream I think.

The benefit is that hosting it yourself might be profitable in the beginning, but you would already have a model to pull out and let the market take over, or... you could just host from a demo perspective to display the new releases, features, and content packages being released.

I always wanted to see MMOs going into the style of market like this. There are so many ways you could approach it, that some model could be developed that would be effective as well as successful in a business venture.

I want a persistently online game, I don't even want the concept of 'servers', runescape actually managed to get this right the first time 20+ years ago.

[Xenich]

albion is just an empty sandbox, don't understand how anyone finds it fun tbh

What we need is an MMO designed for a private server market. No, not like the survival MMOs or the complexities of trying to gimmick an existing MMO, but an official release.

That is, imagine if an MMO was designed with all the frills of a normal MMO release, but... was released with a suite of tools to run your own server and modify it to your tastes. The company could release development packages for it which would allow for new features, customizations, models, artwork, etc... as well as new client release packages, but the tools would be developed with a more user friendly front end where a non-developer could manage it without having to be an actual software developer, but more of learning the software and its tools like a server admin would.

The game could be released with various server licenses for the number of clients allowed to connect to it and controlled under various levels of that licensing so the company would still retain all legal rights to the game itself. The options are limitless in how you do it. There could even be levels licensing to allow a hosting server to charge subscriptions and get support from the development company, or it could be a setup that disallows it, etc... there really is no limits to how you could release it and monetize the product

As a profitable venture, it could do well, but even if it didn't have that level of implementation, developing new tools, content packages, etc... for the server would be a sufficient income stream I think.

The benefit is that hosting it yourself might be profitable in the beginning, but you would already have a model to pull out and let the market take over, or... you could just host from a demo perspective to display the new releases, features, and content packages being released.

I always wanted to see MMOs going into the style of market like this. There are so many ways you could approach it, that some model could be developed that would be effective as well as successful in a business venture.

I want a persistently online game, I don't even want the concept of 'servers', runescape actually managed to get this right the first time 20+ years ago.

I am not following? That is what I am saying... the server could be set to run 24/7 have various independent cycles and dynamic conditions that happen regardless if the player is on or not. It would be like any other MMO of that nature, it would just have a limit on the amount of players that could log into it depending on the license.

I have toyed with private servers, setup their various dynamic features and the game continued to persist when everyone was logged off. It wasn't a "start up and shut down" type of thing, it was always on, always available. Is that what you mean?

[rusty_shackleford]

I am not following? That is what I am saying... the server could be set to run 24/7 have various independent cycles and dynamic conditions that happen regardless if the player is on or not. It would be like any other MMO of that nature, it would just have a limit on the amount of players that could log into it depending on the license.

I have toyed with private servers, setup their various dynamic features and the game continued to persist when everyone was logged off. It wasn't a "start up and shut down" type of thing, it was always on, always available. Is that what you mean?

My character only exists on one server. I don't want a bunch of other servers.
This is one of the main issues with the current wave of games that allow player-server hosting, along with hosts being able to wildly tweak the various design knobs. Game design isn't a volume slider, you can't just crank things up, these are finetuned.

[Xenich]

Yes but WoW is already established in the market. The issue is with creating new ones.

You could just make Totally-Not-Everquest with less than $100k in funding and be a gorillionaire. Look at all the hype monsters and memories has, and that's all it is. The expectations are so incredibly low, and the current developers can't meet it.

I have been thinking about this for a long time. I am so sick of the market, its greedy nature where they are so afraid to lose a penny, they pass up a dollar in earnings because of it. If you look at EQ, it really isn't anything special, its base mechanics are very simplistic. I have toyed with the private servers a lot, thought about what it would be like to just make a server along the same lines, not just EQ but a lot of the different styles out there, and how hard it would be to develop and implement something.

With the tools out there now, a lot of the leg work is already done. I can't find the video anymore, but do you remember when Pantheon failed their Kickstarter and not too long after Brad threw out this very rough world with an area and a mini-dungeon that they showed a base concept of and it looked a lot like EQ and played like it (they were fighting skeletons if I remember right). It is very unlikely they had this during the Kickstarter (as it might have changed things if they had an basic engine gameplay demo to present), so they did whip it up pretty quickly which shows you something can be done in a reasonable amount of time.

I think if someone was interested and limited themselves to the basics (not chasing the stupid "has to be next level graphics") and focused on just solid core gameplay, it would be quite popular as you suggest. Just look at how many people rush to games where they have very poor graphics, are very rough in play, but because they produce some of the existing mechanics that were successful in past games, they are quite popular among certain circles.

I think Pantheon for instance could have released years ago if they would have just stuck with a base expectations of look, feel and play and stopped listening to the garbage of the graphic whores and mob that demands "next gen", but it seems every studio falls for that gimmick and chases that unicorn only to either fail its project or release some half-baked junk that tried to be more than it was.

[Xenich]

I am not following? That is what I am saying... the server could be set to run 24/7 have various independent cycles and dynamic conditions that happen regardless if the player is on or not. It would be like any other MMO of that nature, it would just have a limit on the amount of players that could log into it depending on the license.

I have toyed with private servers, setup their various dynamic features and the game continued to persist when everyone was logged off. It wasn't a "start up and shut down" type of thing, it was always on, always available. Is that what you mean?

My character only exists on one server. I don't want a bunch of other servers.
This is one of the main issues with the current wave of games that allow player-server hosting, along with hosts being able to wildly tweak the various design knobs. Game design isn't a volume slider, you can't just crank things up, these are finetuned.

Why would you play on another server though? For instance, I played years ago on Shards of Dylan EQ Server, there were around 1k+ people at one time on it. I had no interest in moving to other servers, just like in EQ, I had no interest in switching from server to server. So I am not sure your point?

My point was more so to appeal to any taste though. Some people only want a server where they play with a couple hundred friends, others want a larger server, etc... once you find it... well... you continue to play on it just like you did in the official MMOs. I think Shards of Dylan EQ Server is even still up, fully customized (though I didn't care for the direction they went after Wiz left).

Aside from that, there is the possibility to even design into the tools of the server to allow for private server to private server transfers. Yes, I know that comes with a bunch of possible problems, but nothing that couldn't be remedied if the two transfer servers had an agreed upon policy and ruleset importation process.

Like I said, the possibilities are endless and really just a matter of implementation of the servers design and what they allow.

[Xenich]

Nostalgia is overhyped. If the game doesn't have any quality, people will soon hate it and abandon it, as recently seen with Ravendawn. And such things are easier said than done. Will you really only spend $100k in building an MMORPG from scratch, with development, servers, infrastructure, publicity etc. costs? I highly doubt it. Plus you'll have to manage servers and a staff forever, which is also expensive.

Why wouldn't I just develop a shitty mobile game with 1/10th of the costs and no risk to bait some rich chinks instead?

I don't view for instance, EQ as "Nostalgia". I sincerely love that style of play. I hated what EQ turned into away from its original design which is why I moved away from it.

All of the things people claim are bad about it, I think it what gave it the balance to drive people to play it. There were some problems (ie corpse item/loss, raiding being only for those without jobs and on call 24/7, etc...), but a lot of what people wanted removed, called poor design, inconveniences, etc... I think were integral as a part of the overall play and progression. Once they were removed, games became... bland and gimmicky.

I would take an exact remake of EQ release (aside from the corpse loss issues at release) over any game today and I would find it extremely enjoyable and fulfilling. I still load up my own EQ server from time to time and play it because I really enjoy that style of play.

Not nostalgia, just a certain type of mechanic of play that I enjoy and honestly, I think is great design when you consider its over all layers to which when put together created that amazing world.

[Anon]

Nostalgia is overhyped. If the game doesn't have any quality, people will soon hate it and abandon it, as recently seen with Ravendawn. And such things are easier said than done. Will you really only spend $100k in building an MMORPG from scratch, with development, servers, infrastructure, publicity etc. costs? I highly doubt it. Plus you'll have to manage servers and a staff forever, which is also expensive.

Why wouldn't I just develop a shitty mobile game with 1/10th of the costs and no risk to bait some rich chinks instead?

I don't view for instance, EQ as "Nostalgia". I sincerely love that style of play. I hated what EQ turned into away from its original design which is why I moved away from it.

All of the things people claim are bad about it, I think it what gave it the balance to drive people to play it. There were some problems (ie corpse item/loss, raiding being only for those without jobs and on call 24/7, etc...), but a lot of what people wanted removed, called poor design, inconveniences, etc... I think were integral as a part of the overall play and progression. Once they were removed, games became... bland and gimmicky.

I would take an exact remake of EQ release (aside from the corpse loss issues at release) over any game today and I would find it extremely enjoyable and fulfilling. I still load up my own EQ server from time to time and play it because I really enjoy that style of play.

Not nostalgia, just a certain type of mechanic of play that I enjoy and honestly, I think is great design when you consider its over all layers to which when put together created that amazing world.

I think people misunderstood my point. I'm saying that nostalgia is overrated exactly because it's not the true cause of people seeking oldschool mmorpgs, but rather because older mmorpgs had quality aspects that mmorpgs of nowadays don't have.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

WoW having a "cash shop" is completely fine. FF14 has one and it's doing well.

WoW charges $205 per year to play their game ($50 for a box expansion every other year, and $15 per month). You should be able to get everything just by playing. But no. The mounts with the most effort put into their effects and animations are usually the $25 cash shop mounts, and starting with the WoD expansion they began egregiously putting faction mounts that should have been earned via reputations into the cash shop (the Draenei riding Fey Dragons in the Shadowmoon Valley questline? Cash shop. Laughing Skull clan's Grinning Reavers? Cash shop. Suramar's runed Nightsabers? Cash shop. The Reliquary's Mana Wyrms? Cash shop). And then last year they implemented FOMO trader's tender, where you have to be subbed to buy stuff from the limited time merchant to get exclusive mounts and transmogs before they become unavailable for an indefinite amount of time. Weren't subbed when those cool, big Death Knight one-handed swords were available? Too bad.

FFXIV is more egregious. On top of putting what should have been ingame rewards into the cash shop (the Alexander airship mount should have been a reward for killing the boss on savage or ultimate difficulty), you have to pay a higher sub fee to get more bank space, in a game that is constantly filling up your bags with stuff. This is worse than GW2, where at least you only pay a one time fee to increase your bank space. And they hold your house hostage. You have to be subbed to login, and if you don't walk into your house at least once every 45 days, you lose your house, and given the housing shortage (in a video game where housing should be unlimited), it is near impossible to get a house again once you lose it. People can't even get small plots.

[Anon]

WoW having a "cash shop" is completely fine. FF14 has one and it's doing well.

You have to be subbed to login, and if you don't walk into your house at least once every 45 days, you lose your house, and given the housing shortage (in a video game where housing should be unlimited), it is near impossible to get a house again once you lose it. People can't even get small plots.

This is basically what destroyed Ravendawn btw

[Oyster Sauce]

The highest leveled Maplestory player in the world, Niru, was livestreaming the run up to him hitting the level cap of 300. This was a pretty significant even for the game, and it was even sponsored by the developers. At level 299 it takes over 10 hours of grinding to get 1% of the experience you need to advance.
99.993% of the way through 299, he stopped to rant about the game and the developers for over 40 minutes and eventually closed the stream after deciding not to hit 300.

[rusty_shackleford]

The highest leveled Maplestory player in the world, Niru, was livestreaming the run up to him hitting the level cap of 300. This was a pretty significant even for the game, and it was even sponsored by the developers. At level 299 it takes over 10 hours of grinding to get 1% of the experience you need to advance.
99.993% of the way through 299, he stopped to rant about the game and the developers for over 40 minutes and eventually closed the stream after deciding not to hit 300.

just look at this 'game'
why are weebs like this

[Anon]

Maplestory had manipulated RNG on everything to have people spending more and was fined IN FUCKING KOREA for it. Imagine being so predatory that Korea thinks you're making unfair practices.

https://mmorpg.gg/maplestory-players-de ... practices/

Anybody who's kept playing this game after this is out of their minds.