Subterrain: Mines of Titan

[rusty_shackleford]

Well this went right under my radar but it released a couple days ago.
Character portraits were a bit off-putting at first as they seem Tumblr-esque, but digging into the developer it seems they're from South Korea.

After a massive meteor strikes the icy surface of Titan, nothing is left but a vast deposit of rare minerals. The TECC mining company rushes to establish a colony on Titan and successfully tap the riches, until the colony goes dark. It takes years to mount a salvage expedition to the far flung moon of Saturn, so make it count. Restart the flow of resources and figure out what happened to the first wave of colonists.

Stand between the sole survivors of Camp Huygens and total obliteration by Saturn's darkest mysteries. Every turn counts in the desperate struggle for survival, as Titan will not wait around - and neither should you.

Titan is an unrelenting dynamic, persistent world. Every action and step advances time and brings Camp Huygens closer to collapse, unless someone intervenes.
Help surviving colonists with their tasks, assign key jobs, harvest materials, and organize crafting stations to keep the doom at bay.
Manage food and water intake, keep tabs on oxygen and energy levels, and treat any sustained injuries, all while penetrating the abandoned mining tunnels beneath the surface.
Track the passage of time efficiently or it might turn out that the greatest threat to Camp Huygens isn't Titan or its monsters... but you!

Unearth the mysteries of Saturn's most famous moon and go deep beneath its surface to face off against its many horrors.
Fight the monstrosities using intuitive, brisk turn-based combat. Do you make the fight close and personal, risking death as you go toe to toe? Or plink from afar, hoping that ammo won't run out at the wrong time?
Harness the power of nanomachines to unleash devastating abilities against foes, but also sacrifice the ability to physically pummel monsters into submission?
Gain experience and power alongside the celestial creatures underground. Evolve and adapt tactics, or perish in the darkness of Titan's mines!

Craft an endless array of items thanks to a small handful of allies like weapons and elbow grease.
Salvage what you can, break it down into materials, and produce tools like melee weapons, firearms, protective gear, explosives, and countless survival upgrades.
Enhance yourself with medical supplies and continue research to develop even better versions.
Survive long enough to unearth the terrible truth of what happened to the first wave of colonists or find a way to get off the doomed moon, no one said you get both...

Any of you play it yet?

[Acrux]

Is this the second science (not sci-fi) RPG set on Titan?

[rusty_shackleford]

Is this the second science (not sci-fi) RPG set on Titan?

Third that I'm aware of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_of_Titan

Wonder if the devs of OP were even aware of this game.

[Anon]

Gonna check this game out

[rusty_shackleford]

It appears the entire game is tied to the turn system. As in, the base itself is 'alive' and NPCs perform things the same time you do, no matter where you are?
I haven't played it yet, but that sounds cool if so.

[Nammu Archag]

Based off my first glances this sounds really cool

[Anon]

It appears the entire game is tied to the turn system. As in, the base itself is 'alive' and NPCs perform things the same time you do, no matter where you are?
I haven't played it yet, but that sounds cool if so.

Yeah it seems like it's exactly that, like in a single player roguelike.

Btw the game is reminding me a lot of Space Station 13, I'm enjoying it (only have played a grand total of 15 minutes so don't take it at face value)

► Show Spoiler

So they already put a guy who just got out of a cryogenic state and is starving to kill giantic mutated rats so he can have some soup to sate his years-long starvation. Talk about empathy!

[rusty_shackleford]

Seems like it gets worse after the prologue

[maidenhaver]

Always wait.

[ArcaneLurker]

Considering it's easier to animate 2D sprites than 3D models, why are so many indie games adopting this lazy, ugly approach to character movement?

[Rand]

It appears the entire game is tied to the turn system. As in, the base itself is 'alive' and NPCs perform things the same time you do, no matter where you are?
I haven't played it yet, but that sounds cool if so.

Seems computationally impossible. I imagine that it uses state tables or something for offscreen/out of area pseudo-simulation.

[Rand]

Seems like it gets worse after the prologue

10:20 in that video... but also

[WhiteShark]

Considering it's easier to animate 2D sprites than 3D models,

From what I hear you have this exactly backwards. Animating sprites basically means redoing the sprite for every frame, whereas a 3d model can be easily rigged and animated once created.

[WhiteShark]

Seems like it gets worse after the prologue

This is really too bad because the design is right up my alley. I absolutely love the non-modal roguelike approach in which everything is gridded, everything acts in turns, and everything is on the clock.

[ArcaneLurker]

Considering it's easier to animate 2D sprites than 3D models,

From what I hear you have this exactly backwards. Animating sprites basically means redoing the sprite for every frame, whereas a 3d model can be easily rigged and animated once created.

Incorrect. It takes a lot of effort to bring someone in to do professional captures of animations. Even harder to make a realistic animation without capturing someone's movement. It's more noticeable when things aren't up to standard, where as there's a lot of room to 'experiment' with 2D sprite animations.
It's easier to move a rigged 3D model around and call that animation but that's not really what I meant.
It's incredibly easy to create a serviceable sprite animation, redrawing isn't an issue when it takes so little time to redraw-- it's not as if it's like actual 2D animation in movies/ TV series, that's a whole different ball game than pixel sprites or the like.

[Acrux]

Seems like it gets worse after the prologue

Man, I loved what he was saying about devs need to stop taking community "feedback". @rusty_shackleford, you should declare this guy the official RPGHQ video reviewer. And invite him to the site.

[WhiteShark]

Man, I loved what he was saying about devs need to stop taking community "feedback".

Yeah, even before the reviewer pointed it out himself I was shocked at the idea of the dev outright removing the costs when he no doubt planned the whole economy around them. Just make your game moddable and leave that stuff to the player base if they want to mess with it. Breaking your whole concept with a hasty patch after release is insane.

[Hauberk]

why are so many indie games adopting this lazy, ugly approach to character movement?

Beats me. The boring answer would be that they are lazy and don't care if it's ugly or not. Or perhaps it's a single developer who can program stuff but he can't draw.

[Anon]

I closed the game after the 15 minute mark. Apparently according to further feedback I shouldn't go past that

[ArcaneLurker]

why are so many indie games adopting this lazy, ugly approach to character movement?

Beats me. The boring answer would be that they are lazy and don't care if it's ugly or not. Or perhaps it's a single developer who can program stuff but he can't draw.

It's 'cus they keep getting away with it.

[WhiteShark]

Incorrect. It takes a lot of effort to bring someone in to do professional captures of animations. Even harder to make a realistic animation without capturing someone's movement. It's more noticeable when things aren't up to standard, where as there's a lot of room to 'experiment' with 2D sprite animations.
It's easier to move a rigged 3D model around and call that animation but that's not really what I meant.
It's incredibly easy to create a serviceable sprite animation, redrawing isn't an issue when it takes so little time to redraw-- it's not as if it's like actual 2D animation in movies/ TV series, that's a whole different ball game than pixel sprites or the like.

I asked my friend with an animation degree about it and this is what he said:

WhiteShark: I need you to answer this question so I can quote you elsewhere: is 2d sprite animation or 3d model animation easier

SparTorpedo: If were talking about just animating an already modeled and rigged 3D model, it's pretty easy. In comparison, drawing each frame of a sprite is quite complex, albeit if the graphics are simple it might not take as long. If we're talking about 2D puppet animation, then it's the same principle as 3D animation, except one dimension fewer, so I'd argue it's simpler.

WhiteShark: let's assume you're starting from scratch either way
WhiteShark: so you have to make the model and rig it before animating if it's 3d

SparTorpedo: 3d modelling has a very steep learning curve, but it scales exponentially in complexity and becomes pretty easy once youve got the gist. 2D sprites are like drawing but with less information, so it remains harder. If you want to do something like, say, Metal Slug, you have to be an excelent draftsman and can hardly "cheat", but with 3D you can just bruteforce your modelling, taking 1000000 hours to do it until it llooks nice.
SparTorpedo: Lots of 3D modellers start as such because they cant draw. So do many 2D sprite artists, because drawing in pixel art is a bit more lenient. Both are under a regular 2D animator in skill hierarchy, but not necessarily in demand, Id say 3D is the most marketable skill.

WhiteShark: so there's a point of equilibrium when the animations are simple enough that 2d sprites are the same or even easier than 3d
WhiteShark: but otherwise 3d is favored

SparTorpedo: favored as in being the path of least resistance? id say yes
SparTorpedo: especially because at an amateur level, 3D will look more impressive than a sprite

tl;dr

• 3D animation is always easier if you already have a rigged model
• Learning how to 3D model is hard at first but gets easier quickly, whereas 2D remains harder
• 3D can be brute forced to look good, but 2D will always require skill to look good
• If the sprites are extremely simple 2D is easier, but otherwise 3D is easier and will look more impressive for less effort

[rusty_shackleford]

3D animation is easier, if only because you can take already existing animations and retarget them. Most animations you see in games, including big budget AAA titles, are not handmade and/or cleaned up mocap animations but from off the shelf animation libraries either used internally at the studio/publisher or purchased externally. Mocap and such are reserved for things like the main character, cutscenes, etc.,
You can't fake being good at 2D animation.

[edit]
Reminds me of the dev that got accused of stealing Elden Ring animations but they actually bought animations from the asset store and the asset predated Elden Ring implying that From, or the company it was outsourced to, was using asset store animations.

[ArcaneLurker]

I asked my friend with an animation degree about it and this is what he said:

If were talking about just animating an already modeled and rigged 3D model, it's pretty easy.

It is easy to create some dodgy animation. It's not a difficult thing to grasp, technically, it's just a difficult thing to master when it comes to mimicking organic movements.

In comparison, drawing each frame of a sprite is quite complex, albeit if the graphics are simple it might not take as long.

We're talking about very simple graphics here. Not like the 2D animation in anime.

If we're talking about 2D puppet animation, then it's the same principle as 3D animation, except one dimension fewer, so I'd argue it's simpler.

Even a puppet animation using the sprite would have been better than the lazy wobble they did in the OP game.

3d modelling has a very steep learning curve, but it scales exponentially in complexity and becomes pretty easy once youve got the gist.

Yeah, I agree with that, I'd say it requires a greater knowledge of anatomy/ form to sculpt, but less knowledge about perspective, composition, things like that. Indie game sprites often don't conform to strict aesthetic rules though. Think about how many popular games don't look that great, but they still have animations... like Stardew Valley.
I appreciate the keen eyes & skill it takes to capture a lovely aesthetic with pixel art though.

2D sprites are like drawing but with less information, so it remains harder.

I guess you've just gotta have the knack for it. If you can draw a sprite adequately, it shouldn't be that difficult to redraw a few times in different poses.
I'd argue there is an expectation for 3D to have relatively realistic movements, not be wooden, or disjointed-- with 2D pixel art & sprites, there is no expectation for realistic animation at all, it just needs to read well.

If you want to do something like, say, Metal Slug, you have to be an excelent draftsman and can hardly "cheat", but with 3D you can just bruteforce your modelling, taking 1000000 hours to do it until it llooks nice.

This is a little confusing. I guess he's saying there's a higher skill requirement for drafting excellent-looking sprites, whereas you can get plebs to do 3D to the same level of impressive if you get them to work on it long enough?

I guess? Not sure how 1000000 hours from multiple people vs 6-12 hours from one is a good comparison. I don't think there would ever be a scenario where loads of novices attempt to bruteforce creating decent sprite animations like they do with 3D assets. We're arguing about the difficulty of animating characters movements to a decent enough quality here though, and this seems to be about 3D modelling & sculpting rather than the animation.

How difficult is it to motion capture? Either way, the equipment, and hiring the actors for it, is expensive... more expensive than hiring a competent pixel artist to create sprite animations. You didn't mention to your friend about the difficulty of capturing the essence of realistic movement in 3D animation without using motion capture-- which is the standard at which 3D is not starkly odd-looking to me.

So do many 2D sprite artists, because drawing in pixel art is a bit more lenient.

Exactly, see? It's lenient. That applies to the animations too.

both are under a 2D animator in skill hierarchy,

No arguments there. Whether it's traditional Disney or Anime.

favored as in being the path of least resistance? id say yes

I think the path of least resistance here is doing that monopoly-board wobble instead of a properly animated character.

especially because at an amateur level, 3D will look more impressive than a sprite

I guess we have different standards, because it's very noticeable to me when an amateur 3D artist is animating something-- like Andromeda uncanny was supposedly a bunch of professionals, right? Well, amateurs are worse.
Meanwhile a lot of crap sprite animations barely register as such.

3D animation is easier, if only because you can take already existing animations and retarget them. Most animations you see in games, including big budget AAA titles, are not handmade and/or cleaned up mocap animations but from off the shelf animation libraries either used internally at the studio/publisher or purchased externally. Mocap and such are reserved for things like the main character, cutscenes, etc.,
You can't fake being good at 2D animation.

[edit]
Reminds me of the dev that got accused of stealing Elden Ring animations but they actually bought animations from the asset store and the asset predated Elden Ring implying that From, or the company it was outsourced to, was using asset store animations.

Yeah, that's the thing with 3D, there is more "cheating" available as an option. Once someone mo-caps an animation, they can put it up on sale, and it can be re-used by many.

That 'Elden Ring' animation still had to use the same skeleton though, right?

[WhiteShark]

@ArcaneLurker I don't know why you're so fixated on motion capture. As far as I know it being used in mainstream games is a relatively new thing. The vast majority of 3d games don't use motion capture and look fine.

[ArcaneLurker]

@ArcaneLurker I don't know why you're so fixated on motion capture. As far as I know it being used in mainstream games is a relatively new thing. The vast majority of 3d games don't use motion capture and look fine.

Mo-cap is just a standard that can be used to compare so you know what kind of animation I'm talking about, since it's directly recorded from real life movements.
It's pretty obvious when high fidelity models don't have quality animations, whether they were mo-capped or not.

Animating low-poly model animations is about on par with redrawing simple 2D pixel sprites for animations.
Both are somewhat tedious, despite being quite easy.

Animating 3D fluidly & realistically vs producing sprites & animations of higher aesthetic quality, or of greater detail are also comparable, as both need expertise.

But animating 3D realistically is harder than redrawing the simple 2D pixel sprites... discounting the use of 'cheats' such as hiring someone else to do it or purchasing assets.

[rusty_shackleford]

These guys have been putting out at least 1 patch a day since release if you were originally interested in the game but put off by reviews
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1573100

[rusty_shackleford]

time to brown woman with side-shaved haircut: 0 seconds


bombarded with walls of text, this sucks

[rusty_shackleford]

the dialogue in this is so overly verbose. This is just an introduction to talking to an NPC:





HAHAHAH IT'S THE KONAMI CODE!!! SO FUNNY, RIGHT KIDS?! WE'RE SO RELATABLE!


The game itself actually seems like it might be fun if it let me play the game instead of forcing me to read this crap.

Here's how you can rewrite the dialogue:

David Almanza — Welcome, I'm David. Let's register you. (Awkward chuckle)

David Almanza — Stand here for a quick setup. (A moment passes.) You're all set to connect to our systems.