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Chronicling the inability of gamedevs to make video games
- KnightoftheWind
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I think anti-cheats are a necessary evil unfortunately, because the alternative would be getting hacked and servers being overrun with cheaters of all shapes and sizes. This has occurred with big games like Team Fortress 2, and even now with games that feature full anti-cheat support. This is a problem of online gaming being extremely popular, with tens of thousands of players and online communities dedicated to them. It's only a matter of time before a bad actor shows up with ill intent, and without some form of anti-cheat the playerbase would be at the mercy of these degenerates.
The best solution is to quit cold-turkey, and avoid all online multiplayer games, but that isn't easy for some.
The best solution is to quit cold-turkey, and avoid all online multiplayer games, but that isn't easy for some.
- rusty_shackleford
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Clientside anti-cheat has always been a scam. If a game has anticheat, it means the developer probably put things in the client that enable cheating. No clientside anticheat will stop a determined cheater, the only way to do this is to analyze the data on the server for inhuman behavior.Boontaker wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 20:31Anti cheat is like car insurance these days, a total fucking scam
Last edited by rusty_shackleford on March 18th, 2024, 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
- Oyster Sauce
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Cheating in shooters was solved decades ago with dedicated servers. I have thousands of hours in TF2 and I've never seen a single cheater.
- Nammu Archag
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- Location: Tel Uvirith
Total Streamer DeathOyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 19:18Hackers in Apex Legends are now injecting cheats into other players' computers during tournaments
Back when community servers were everywhere it was never much of a problem, because the cheaters would be booted pretty quick. Every multiplayer game needs community servers. They also help extend the life of games too.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 20:52Cheating in shooters was solved decades ago with dedicated servers. I have thousands of hours in TF2 and I've never seen a single cheater.
BattleBit has EasyAnti-Cheat, but it was broken wide open last year and the cheating is rampant now.
Easily 20% of the players in every match are using some sort of hacks. Sometimes more.
There are whole clans known to be ALL (obviously) cheating.
Every "top" player is a dirty fucking cheat. I've literally watched most of them aimbot.
And the devs do nothing.
Easily 20% of the players in every match are using some sort of hacks. Sometimes more.
There are whole clans known to be ALL (obviously) cheating.
Every "top" player is a dirty fucking cheat. I've literally watched most of them aimbot.
And the devs do nothing.
Last edited by Rand on March 18th, 2024, 21:50, edited 1 time in total.
- Oyster Sauce
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BattleBit was so much fun. I even forged credentials to get the devs to give me veteran status. Good times.Rand wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 21:49BattleBit has EasyAnti-Cheat, but it was broken wide open last year and the cheating is rampant now.
Easily 20% of the players in every match are using some sort of hacks. Sometimes more.
There are whole clans known to be ALL (obviously) cheating.
Every "top" player is a dirty fucking cheat. I've literally watched most of them aimbot.
And the devs do nothing.
Didn't the same devs leave Titanfall 2 to rot for years on end, at the mercy of a bunch of cheaters that were ruining the experience for everyone, to the point the game was basically unplayable unless you used community-made fixes?
The devs only bothered to release a patch late last year.
Oh that's horrible news. I played on release but was thinking about playing again.Rand wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 21:49BattleBit has EasyAnti-Cheat, but it was broken wide open last year and the cheating is rampant now.
Easily 20% of the players in every match are using some sort of hacks. Sometimes more.
There are whole clans known to be ALL (obviously) cheating.
Every "top" player is a dirty fucking cheat. I've literally watched most of them aimbot.
And the devs do nothing.
lol
lmao even
lmao even
Last edited by gerey on March 18th, 2024, 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
Not the same devs, but the same, yeah.gerey wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 22:09Didn't the same devs leave Titanfall 2 to rot for years on end, at the mercy of a bunch of cheaters that were ruining the experience for everyone, to the point the game was basically unplayable unless you used community-made fixes?
The devs only bothered to release a patch late last year.
Oh, and it was ONE GUY that was basically fucking over the (shitty) Titanfall server code in new ways all the time.
Last edited by Rand on March 18th, 2024, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
Worse, while they never ban for cheating anymore, they ban all the time for people saying gamer words.Breathe wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 22:43Oh that's horrible news. I played on release but was thinking about playing again.Rand wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 21:49BattleBit has EasyAnti-Cheat, but it was broken wide open last year and the cheating is rampant now.
Easily 20% of the players in every match are using some sort of hacks. Sometimes more.
There are whole clans known to be ALL (obviously) cheating.
Every "top" player is a dirty fucking cheat. I've literally watched most of them aimbot.
And the devs do nothing.
Cheating is fine, but calling some retard a faggot will get you banned. What a world.
- rusty_shackleford
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Yea, devs are legally allowed to do this. They can just take your mods and sell them if they wanted.
The amount of people saying 'sue them' is amazing.
Last edited by rusty_shackleford on March 19th, 2024, 00:31, edited 1 time in total.
- Oyster Sauce
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RimWorld Guy always includes a few popular mods in his expansions. I'm all for it.rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 00:30Yea, devs are legally allowed to do this. They can just take your mods and sell them if they wanted.
The amount of people saying 'sue them' is amazing.
currently the most popular forms of cheating that i know of are anti-recoil scripts and abusing aim assist. Both can be done with dedicated hardware like this:rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 20:48Clientside anti-cheat has always been a scam. If a game has anticheat, it means the developer probably put things in the client that enable cheating. No clientside anticheat will stop a determined cheater, the only way to do this is to analyze the data on the server for inhuman behavior.Boontaker wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 20:31Anti cheat is like car insurance these days, a total fucking scam
There's many such devices, XIM, Nexus, Titan2, etc. They intercept the peripheral calls and send their own.
There is nothing that client-side anti-cheat or anything devs put in an executable that can do anything about this, or if there is then i've never seen them do it. Real cheaters rarely mess around or depend on installed software.
There's a difference in motivation in that RimWorld guy is a great guy who wants to make a better game for gamers, while that generic soulless Disney-Star Wars vehicle is a product of hellish forces and poisonous minds.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 00:35RimWorld Guy always includes a few popular mods in his expansions. I'm all for it.rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 00:30Yea, devs are legally allowed to do this. They can just take your mods and sell them if they wanted.
The amount of people saying 'sue them' is amazing.
Yep. Microcontrollers. Uncommon, but still too common.aweigh wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 00:47currently the most popular forms of cheating that i know of are anti-recoil scripts and abusing aim assist. Both can be done with dedicated hardware like this:rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 20:48Clientside anti-cheat has always been a scam. If a game has anticheat, it means the developer probably put things in the client that enable cheating. No clientside anticheat will stop a determined cheater, the only way to do this is to analyze the data on the server for inhuman behavior.Boontaker wrote: ↑ March 18th, 2024, 20:31Anti cheat is like car insurance these days, a total fucking scam
There's many such devices, XIM, Nexus, Titan2, etc. They intercept the peripheral calls and send their own.
There is nothing that client-side anti-cheat or anything devs put in an executable that can do anything about this, or if there is then i've never seen them do it. Real cheaters rarely mess around or depend on installed software.
It's the step before you install a card to direct memory access one computer using another computer. Which is hella expensive, but rich cretins are used to cheating all the time in life, so...
In BattleBit, it's mostly mouse macros and AHK stuff, with the big clan cheaters having the better hacks and microcontrollers.
And you can tell instantly because there aren't that many pro players playing the game to equal the amount of people getting pro-level scores. By which I mean that they're outpacing even good players by 3-5x, getting ridiculous kill numbers with few deaths which you only see in pro-level competitions against ordinary gamers. "But he's just a good player, bro." I wanna shoot these morons irl.
Most of the players are retards. "I've played 200 hours and never seen a cheater!" Dumbass, you've seen plenty, you're just stupid and suck at the game or are a cheater yourself.
The solution is AI anticheat.
It's supposed to get good enough that it can even detect previously banned cheaters on a new account because it can detect the playstyle.
I'm sure it won't get them all, but if it gets 80% that would be a huge boon.
Unfortunately it's server-side and most devs today are half retarded.
Last edited by Rand on March 19th, 2024, 01:29, edited 3 times in total.
- Analogue Dreams
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Feb 28, '24
How does memory access direction work, what sort of card do they use? Is it like a KVM switch to send commands from one computer to another so rootkit anticheat can't detect it? Think I've heard something about cheats like those before, but never really understood how they work. It amazes me the lengths people go to cheat at online games, especially all the bottom of the barrel ones that are popular now.Rand wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:25Yep. Microcontrollers. Uncommon, but still too common.
It's the step before you install a card to direct memory access one computer using another computer. Which is hella expensive, but rich cretins are used to cheating all the time in life, so...
In BattleBit, it's mostly mouse macros and AHK stuff, with the big clan cheaters having the better hacks and microcontrollers.
And you can tell instantly because there aren't that many pro players playing the game to equal the amount of people getting pro-level scores. By which I mean that they're outpacing even good players by 3-5x, getting ridiculous kill numbers with few deaths which you only see in pro-level competitions against ordinary gamers. "But he's just a good player, bro." I wanna shoot these morons irl.
Most of the players are retards. "I've played 200 hours and never seen a cheater!" Dumbass, you've seen plenty, you're just stupid and suck at the game or are a cheater yourself.
The solution is AI anticheat.
It's supposed to get good enough that it can even detect previously banned cheaters on a new account because it can detect the playstyle.
I'm sure it won't get them all, but if it gets 80% that would be a huge boon.
Unfortunately it's server-side and most devs today are half retarded.
AI anticheat doesn't sound like it'd be reliable unless you mean something more specialised than what I'm guessing, which is training an LLM to do it. They can't reliably identify the time on a watch in photos or who is wearing it, although LLMs are much better at telling the time if the time just so happens to be the most prevalent time featured on a clock in advertising photos and data. Next-token prediction and the way LLMs rely on statistical prevalence of data don't sound good to me for finding cheaters.
All the attempts to solve cheating seem like the wrong approach imo, the more tech everyone has the more it seems everyone forgets how to do basic things. Way it used to work, like in old RTS at one point, was just by user reports and the dev looking into it and investigating whatever proof you sent them. You emailed them your replay of the game match and whatever other evidence you had, then some intern takes a look (or not if they were an intern at a prevalent company that decided to abandon every previous player base of theirs in 2004). If it checks out, they ban their CD key.
Games that did that were some of the biggest at the time that everyone was playing too, they weren't small, no reason devs couldn't do it now when they have way more money to employ customer servants. Better a real person finds and determines who is actually cheating than an algorithm or rootkit. Obviously the only problem is they're too incompetent now, but there's no workaround that'll make them act as if they were competent anyway.
This is a pretty good primer. It focuses on Valorant, but applies to all games. There's a timestamp for DMA cheats in the video.Analogue Dreams wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:53How does memory access direction work, what sort of card do they use? Is it like a KVM switch to send commands from one computer to another so rootkit anticheat can't detect it? Think I've heard something about cheats like those before, but never really understood how they work. It amazes me the lengths people go to cheat at online games, especially all the bottom of the barrel ones that are popular now.Rand wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:25Yep. Microcontrollers. Uncommon, but still too common.
It's the step before you install a card to direct memory access one computer using another computer. Which is hella expensive, but rich cretins are used to cheating all the time in life, so...
In BattleBit, it's mostly mouse macros and AHK stuff, with the big clan cheaters having the better hacks and microcontrollers.
And you can tell instantly because there aren't that many pro players playing the game to equal the amount of people getting pro-level scores. By which I mean that they're outpacing even good players by 3-5x, getting ridiculous kill numbers with few deaths which you only see in pro-level competitions against ordinary gamers. "But he's just a good player, bro." I wanna shoot these morons irl.
Most of the players are retards. "I've played 200 hours and never seen a cheater!" Dumbass, you've seen plenty, you're just stupid and suck at the game or are a cheater yourself.
The solution is AI anticheat.
It's supposed to get good enough that it can even detect previously banned cheaters on a new account because it can detect the playstyle.
I'm sure it won't get them all, but if it gets 80% that would be a huge boon.
Unfortunately it's server-side and most devs today are half retarded.
AI anticheat doesn't sound like it'd be reliable unless you mean something more specialised than what I'm guessing, which is training an LLM to do it. They can't reliably identify the time on a watch in photos or who is wearing it, although LLMs are much better at telling the time if the time just so happens to be the most prevalent time featured on a clock in advertising photos and data. Next-token prediction and the way LLMs rely on statistical prevalence of data don't sound good to me for finding cheaters.
All the attempts to solve cheating seem like the wrong approach imo, the more tech everyone has the more it seems everyone forgets how to do basic things. Way it used to work, like in old RTS at one point, was just by user reports and the dev looking into it and investigating whatever proof you sent them. You emailed them your replay of the game match and whatever other evidence you had, then some intern takes a look (or not if they were an intern at a prevalent company that decided to abandon every previous player base of theirs in 2004). If it checks out, they ban their CD key.
Games that did that were some of the biggest at the time that everyone was playing too, they weren't small, no reason devs couldn't do it now when they have way more money to employ customer servants. Better a real person finds and determines who is actually cheating than an algorithm or rootkit. Obviously the only problem is they're too incompetent now, but there's no workaround that'll make them act as if they were competent anyway.
Last edited by Rand on March 19th, 2024, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.
- Oyster Sauce
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Cheats regularly advance and become more difficult to detect, guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.Analogue Dreams wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:53How does memory access direction work, what sort of card do they use? Is it like a KVM switch to send commands from one computer to another so rootkit anticheat can't detect it? Think I've heard something about cheats like those before, but never really understood how they work. It amazes me the lengths people go to cheat at online games, especially all the bottom of the barrel ones that are popular now.Rand wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:25Yep. Microcontrollers. Uncommon, but still too common.
It's the step before you install a card to direct memory access one computer using another computer. Which is hella expensive, but rich cretins are used to cheating all the time in life, so...
In BattleBit, it's mostly mouse macros and AHK stuff, with the big clan cheaters having the better hacks and microcontrollers.
And you can tell instantly because there aren't that many pro players playing the game to equal the amount of people getting pro-level scores. By which I mean that they're outpacing even good players by 3-5x, getting ridiculous kill numbers with few deaths which you only see in pro-level competitions against ordinary gamers. "But he's just a good player, bro." I wanna shoot these morons irl.
Most of the players are retards. "I've played 200 hours and never seen a cheater!" Dumbass, you've seen plenty, you're just stupid and suck at the game or are a cheater yourself.
The solution is AI anticheat.
It's supposed to get good enough that it can even detect previously banned cheaters on a new account because it can detect the playstyle.
I'm sure it won't get them all, but if it gets 80% that would be a huge boon.
Unfortunately it's server-side and most devs today are half retarded.
AI anticheat doesn't sound like it'd be reliable unless you mean something more specialised than what I'm guessing, which is training an LLM to do it. They can't reliably identify the time on a watch in photos or who is wearing it, although LLMs are much better at telling the time if the time just so happens to be the most prevalent time featured on a clock in advertising photos and data. Next-token prediction and the way LLMs rely on statistical prevalence of data don't sound good to me for finding cheaters.
All the attempts to solve cheating seem like the wrong approach imo, the more tech everyone has the more it seems everyone forgets how to do basic things. Way it used to work, like in old RTS at one point, was just by user reports and the dev looking into it and investigating whatever proof you sent them. You emailed them your replay of the game match and whatever other evidence you had, then some intern takes a look (or not if they were an intern at a prevalent company that decided to abandon every previous player base of theirs in 2004). If it checks out, they ban their CD key.
Games that did that were some of the biggest at the time that everyone was playing too, they weren't small, no reason devs couldn't do it now when they have way more money to employ customer servants. Better a real person finds and determines who is actually cheating than an algorithm or rootkit. Obviously the only problem is they're too incompetent now, but there's no workaround that'll make them act as if they were competent anyway.
That's why BattleBit gave up.Analogue Dreams wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:53All the attempts to solve cheating seem like the wrong approach imo, the more tech everyone has the more it seems everyone forgets how to do basic things. Way it used to work, like in old RTS at one point, was just by user reports and the dev looking into it and investigating whatever proof you sent them. You emailed them your replay of the game match and whatever other evidence you had, then some intern takes a look (or not if they were an intern at a prevalent company that decided to abandon every previous player base of theirs in 2004). If it checks out, they ban their CD key.
Games that did that were some of the biggest at the time that everyone was playing too, they weren't small, no reason devs couldn't do it now when they have way more money to employ customer servants. Better a real person finds and determines who is actually cheating than an algorithm or rootkit. Obviously the only problem is they're too incompetent now, but there's no workaround that'll make them act as if they were competent anyway.
Three cheap-ass devs.
Can't be arsed to ban cheaters anymore.
It's a literal full-time job with their garbage anti-cheat implementation.
And they opened up community servers, who themselves can't be bothered.
A couple of community servers are run by clans who cheat, too.
This is still exactly how they do it. Just not for cheating.Analogue Dreams wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:53Way it used to work, like in old RTS at one point, was just by user reports and the dev looking into it and investigating whatever proof you sent them. You emailed them your replay of the game match and whatever other evidence you had, then some intern takes a look (or not if they were an intern at a prevalent company that decided to abandon every previous player base of theirs in 2004). If it checks out, they ban their CD key.
This is what they do when you send a screenshot of someone saying nigger.
- rusty_shackleford
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AI models are trained on cheaters and used to detect them. Valve already does this, don't know if others do.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:00guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.
- Oyster Sauce
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Ok, but AI models aren't people watching replays. I agree that technology is the way forward rather than human intuition.rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:03AI models are trained on cheaters and used to detect them. Valve already does this, don't know if others do.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:00guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.
Yeah. For example, the new triggerbots are hard for a human to detect since it just fires the weapon only when you manually line up the shot.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:00Cheats regularly advance and become more difficult to detect, guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.
It just has effective perfect human accuracy, firing only when there's a possible hit and stops the instant the target is dead.
Add in normal weapon spread and some shots still miss. If you're smart, you program in just a little randomness to the bot.
I think I see it pretty often in BattleBit, but you can't be sure unless you watch someone play a match and be just too damned good all the time.
Last edited by Rand on March 19th, 2024, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
- Shillitron
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After 20 epochs of crunching data, using entire data centers... the AI has deduced.. any female streaming playing well - is wall hacking.rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:03AI models are trained on cheaters and used to detect them. Valve already does this, don't know if others do.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:00guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.
Last edited by Shillitron on March 19th, 2024, 02:06, edited 2 times in total.
They don't bother with cheating because there's no BlackRock incentive to police cheaters, however there is huge monetary incentive in the industry to police what people say in chat, specifically what they refer to as "hate speech".
Everything that everyone here wants done about cheating is what they're already doing to combat "hate speech". No money to police cheaters, however.
Everything that everyone here wants done about cheating is what they're already doing to combat "hate speech". No money to police cheaters, however.
- rusty_shackleford
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That's most likely something an AI model could detect easily. Anything that's abnormal gets picked up and flagged for review.Rand wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:05Yeah. For example, the new triggerbots are hard for a human to detect since it just fires the weapon only when you manually line up the shot.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:00Cheats regularly advance and become more difficult to detect, guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.Analogue Dreams wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 01:53
How does memory access direction work, what sort of card do they use? Is it like a KVM switch to send commands from one computer to another so rootkit anticheat can't detect it? Think I've heard something about cheats like those before, but never really understood how they work. It amazes me the lengths people go to cheat at online games, especially all the bottom of the barrel ones that are popular now.
AI anticheat doesn't sound like it'd be reliable unless you mean something more specialised than what I'm guessing, which is training an LLM to do it. They can't reliably identify the time on a watch in photos or who is wearing it, although LLMs are much better at telling the time if the time just so happens to be the most prevalent time featured on a clock in advertising photos and data. Next-token prediction and the way LLMs rely on statistical prevalence of data don't sound good to me for finding cheaters.
All the attempts to solve cheating seem like the wrong approach imo, the more tech everyone has the more it seems everyone forgets how to do basic things. Way it used to work, like in old RTS at one point, was just by user reports and the dev looking into it and investigating whatever proof you sent them. You emailed them your replay of the game match and whatever other evidence you had, then some intern takes a look (or not if they were an intern at a prevalent company that decided to abandon every previous player base of theirs in 2004). If it checks out, they ban their CD key.
Games that did that were some of the biggest at the time that everyone was playing too, they weren't small, no reason devs couldn't do it now when they have way more money to employ customer servants. Better a real person finds and determines who is actually cheating than an algorithm or rootkit. Obviously the only problem is they're too incompetent now, but there's no workaround that'll make them act as if they were competent anyway.
It just has effective perfect human accuracy, firing only when there's a possible hit and stops the instant the target is dead.
Add in normal weapon spread and some shots still miss. If you're smart, you program in just a little randomness to the bot.
I think I see it pretty often in BattleBit, but you can't be sure unless you watch someone play a match and be just too damned good all the time.
The guys who worked on it for Valve did a talk at GDC about it.
- Oyster Sauce
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Hope so, but CS2 is still rife with cheaters as far as I know.rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:07That's most likely something an AI model could detect easily. Anything that's abnormal gets picked up and flagged for review.Rand wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:05Yeah. For example, the new triggerbots are hard for a human to detect since it just fires the weapon only when you manually line up the shot.Oyster Sauce wrote: ↑ March 19th, 2024, 02:00
Cheats regularly advance and become more difficult to detect, guys watching replays to find evidence of cheating have peaked and will never get better.
It just has effective perfect human accuracy, firing only when there's a possible hit and stops the instant the target is dead.
Add in normal weapon spread and some shots still miss. If you're smart, you program in just a little randomness to the bot.
I think I see it pretty often in BattleBit, but you can't be sure unless you watch someone play a match and be just too damned good all the time.
The guys who worked on it for Valve did a talk at GDC about it.