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Fudging is Lying
I was never a fan of fudge, but I think I'm starting to like it. 10/10 - would fudge it up, again.
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WhiteShark
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MadPreacher
But you made the claim that ALL fudging is lying and that fudging is a very bad thing. I did a very bad thing according to you. Why are you backing away from your idiotic position?WhiteShark wrote: ↑ July 23rd, 2023, 15:14If everybody is aware of it, I agree that it doesn't count as lying.
Last edited by MadPreacher on July 23rd, 2023, 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
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2factorauth
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Wasn't aware that Craig Stern had joined.
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2factorauth
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I've always rolled in the open and I've never fudged, whether fudging refers to faking or changing dice results, target numbers, or opposition statistics / capabilities. In most games, I let the players learn specific mechanical facts about enemies with the use of certain talents or powers, and in some games I make the current and maximum health of enemies public knowledge by default. If I wasn't going to use the dice, I wouldn't bother buying a rulebook.
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Shillitron
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What if I wanna setup le cool epic moment for my dnd tabletop youtube video series.. c-c-can I fudge then?
I KNEEL DOWN... AND STEAL THE HAND OF VECN-
Roll for success
Oh uhm.. :Rolls dice: .. 1..
I KNEEL DOWN... AND STEAL THE HAND OF VECN-
Roll for success
Oh uhm.. :Rolls dice: .. 1..
Last edited by Shillitron on November 10th, 2023, 00:58, edited 3 times in total.
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maidenhaver
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The Hand of Vecn grabs your nuts and you must roll again or the hand will furiously drain your life essence all over your companions.
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Shillitron
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:Maidenhaver was never invited to a dnd session again:maidenhaver wrote: ↑ November 9th, 2023, 18:34The Hand of Vecn grabs your nuts and you must roll again or the hand will furiously drain your life essence all over your companions.
Also you didn't get my joke about it being Hand of Vecna..? the dash meant the player was cut off.. nobody gets me...!
EDIT:
I never added a dash because I'm a retard.
Last edited by Shillitron on November 10th, 2023, 00:58, edited 2 times in total.
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WhiteShark
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Nothing so amazing as the Head of Vecna!
As a min/maxing troll, when I discover GMs fudging dice I lose all interest in playing. If you remove the RNG from a tabletop game then you should just play a different game.
Don't like RNG? Play gloomhaven or frosthaven etc...
Want your OCDonutSteel campaign story to unfold in a certain way? Play a system with reduced RNG elements like hero system (gurps without the aids)
Fudging dice is just as bad as when DMs adjust monster statistics to unnatural values. Goblins suddenly having 30hp because modern 5e characters are too powerful for example, just use orcs. It breaks game "realism" when the tribal goblins suddenly have enough raw stats to completely crush all the NPCs in the nearby town. Suspension of disbelief is thrown out the window.
A larger problem with modern tabletop gaming is that players are too "good" at tabletop games, unless you invite people who have never played before. Then you have different problems like new players not knowing how to self motivate or how to make their characters apart of the game world. You get goofy scenarios where players want to pickpocket the magic items off a high level NPC you just introduced. Or players murderhoboing their way through what you wanted to be a diplomatic encounter.
Most of these issues are solved by a session zero where the players and GM all communicate what they want out of the game. If the GM wants a story heavy game then the players need to know that beforehand, players should be instructed to make appropriate characters for that game and you should pick an appropriate system for a story game, usually this means NOT a d20 game. If the GM wants a mechanics heavy combat dungeon crawl game then players should be informed. I'm sure you can see where this is going.
Also something many DMs fail to recognize is that you get in what you put out. Want that fantastic gygax adventure? Be ready to spend 15 hrs a week on game prep, and be sure to find players willing to spend an hour a week on game prep away from the table.
My DM (father) has spent the past 6 years buying newer versions of 1st edition D&D because he wants players to feel "fear" in his campaigns, but he also fudges dice rolls. What this ultimately achieves is he runs a few sessions in a new system, doesn't get the results he wants and we move on to the next system a few months down the road.
Before you tell me a DM shouldn't have to spend so much time prepping the game, I agree. Run a module. Although that still requires homework.
Don't like RNG? Play gloomhaven or frosthaven etc...
Want your OCDonutSteel campaign story to unfold in a certain way? Play a system with reduced RNG elements like hero system (gurps without the aids)
Fudging dice is just as bad as when DMs adjust monster statistics to unnatural values. Goblins suddenly having 30hp because modern 5e characters are too powerful for example, just use orcs. It breaks game "realism" when the tribal goblins suddenly have enough raw stats to completely crush all the NPCs in the nearby town. Suspension of disbelief is thrown out the window.
A larger problem with modern tabletop gaming is that players are too "good" at tabletop games, unless you invite people who have never played before. Then you have different problems like new players not knowing how to self motivate or how to make their characters apart of the game world. You get goofy scenarios where players want to pickpocket the magic items off a high level NPC you just introduced. Or players murderhoboing their way through what you wanted to be a diplomatic encounter.
Most of these issues are solved by a session zero where the players and GM all communicate what they want out of the game. If the GM wants a story heavy game then the players need to know that beforehand, players should be instructed to make appropriate characters for that game and you should pick an appropriate system for a story game, usually this means NOT a d20 game. If the GM wants a mechanics heavy combat dungeon crawl game then players should be informed. I'm sure you can see where this is going.
Also something many DMs fail to recognize is that you get in what you put out. Want that fantastic gygax adventure? Be ready to spend 15 hrs a week on game prep, and be sure to find players willing to spend an hour a week on game prep away from the table.
My DM (father) has spent the past 6 years buying newer versions of 1st edition D&D because he wants players to feel "fear" in his campaigns, but he also fudges dice rolls. What this ultimately achieves is he runs a few sessions in a new system, doesn't get the results he wants and we move on to the next system a few months down the road.
Before you tell me a DM shouldn't have to spend so much time prepping the game, I agree. Run a module. Although that still requires homework.
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Ratcatcher
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Tell your dad that to properly convey 'fear' in pnp, you need 2 things. One is good descriptions, to trigger the reaction you want you need to use the correct words. Simple as. This is system agnostic. Secondly, and most importantly, you need multiple avenues to damage your players. A system like D&D, based around trading 'resources' (ablative HP in combat, Vancian spells), needs quite a lot of work to become truly scary. Else you risk just making it extra lethal. If you want players to despair and take harsher decisions, out of their comfort zone, you need to be able to endanger them from multiple sides.
Ironically, the more modern systems, which allow you to drain or damage a player's Attributes with much more control and granularity, are (marginally) better suited for that, as you're not forced into just inflicting HP as damage.
Most of the 'fear factor' of the older systems comes from 2 sources, one is players of old had no idea what a monster means, until they fought it. Nowaday anyone can have a Bulette spoiled for him. Have a good GM manage an encounter with one while you have no clues and I assure you the fear factor is guaranteed. Basically impossible to pull off in 2023 unless you go custom monster route.
The other main source of fear is lack of balance. Most older modules are literally bonkers. Have a look at 2nd ed Ravenloft. Read modules like 'Feast of Goblyns' or 'Thoughts of Darkness' in their OG incarnation and tell me if they are balanced for the given level (consider that, if following the Ravenloft arc, most '8 level' players are probably level 4 to 6, due to copious and permanent energy drain).
And I write all that as someone that adores old school d&d.
Ironically, the more modern systems, which allow you to drain or damage a player's Attributes with much more control and granularity, are (marginally) better suited for that, as you're not forced into just inflicting HP as damage.
Most of the 'fear factor' of the older systems comes from 2 sources, one is players of old had no idea what a monster means, until they fought it. Nowaday anyone can have a Bulette spoiled for him. Have a good GM manage an encounter with one while you have no clues and I assure you the fear factor is guaranteed. Basically impossible to pull off in 2023 unless you go custom monster route.
The other main source of fear is lack of balance. Most older modules are literally bonkers. Have a look at 2nd ed Ravenloft. Read modules like 'Feast of Goblyns' or 'Thoughts of Darkness' in their OG incarnation and tell me if they are balanced for the given level (consider that, if following the Ravenloft arc, most '8 level' players are probably level 4 to 6, due to copious and permanent energy drain).
And I write all that as someone that adores old school d&d.
Last edited by Ratcatcher on November 10th, 2023, 10:53, edited 1 time in total.
