The Wayward Realms

[Rigwort]

In Morrowind, my guy got better at blocking as I spent dozens of hours fighting and training with a shield. In Skyrim, I just blocked whenever I wanted and nothing changed between the tutorial and whenever I stopped playing.

How does your characters skill with a sword and shield progress in Skyrim? Do you block more attacks? Do you wield your sword differently and more efficiently? Oh it just makes number go up so you do a few more points of damage against the damage sponges... I see...

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Block
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Block
Two points to make here.
1) Skyrim is in no way a good implementation of action RPG mechanics, and neither Brother Michael nor Rusty made this argument.
2) These points aren't even true anyways. Blocking in Morrowind is passive, so really it's just a chance % goes up as you increase blocking. Not really riveting in first or third person. Skyrim on the other hand, based on the links above, has experience in blocking allow for a bash, charge, disarm, and increase resistances to elements (when the shield is raised).

But that's beside the point. I do think Morrowind is ruined with 100% hit chance, I've played mods that re-balanced it and all it does is take away from the suspense. Foryn Gilnth is no longer a threat to a mage with the atronach at early levels (for the inexperienced, at least). Completely ruins the danger. Further, I think in an ideal scenario, the Skyrim perks would activate upon doing something skillful, such as a time block/bash.

I think it would be more prudent to compare Morrowind to Gothic. Made in the same era, I think it's a fair comparison. Gothic does have unlockable combos, different sword stances, a timed block, a dodge (no shields though). And as inhospitable Morrowind seems, compared to Gothic it's an old folks home. I think what Gothic does right, that other action games ought to do, is make enemies more lethal. In turn-based (or RTwP) rpgs, monsters at your level don't hit too hard, and have greater health pools. This allows for a drawn-out, tactical game where you're trying to wear down a great beast or selectively wear down an enemy team(this doesn't apply to fodder). Action games should have faster combat, where one slip-up can end you or your enemy quickly. Ergo, neither Oblivion nor Skyrim really make for enjoyable action RPGs.

As for the Roll-to-hit in arpgs? It's an artifact, a compromise. If I can jump around or move freely in battle, what's the point?

[Vergil]

Why have random chance as “simulation” when action mechanics locked behind character progression and development are more satisfying to use?

How does your characters skill with a sword and shield progress in Skyrim? Do you block more attacks? Do you wield your sword differently and more efficiently? Oh it just makes number go up so you do a few more points of damage against the damage sponges... I see...

With maximum block, your character can send enemies flying with power bashes and the charge move, and more damage is blocked by the shield. Skyrim has the necessary parts for a good combat system without injecting it with MCO slop, but Bethesda fucked up the balancing as usual. It only takes a few lightweight mods to make it worthwhile to take advantage of these things.

"It's good with mods" isn't a very strong defense... get your block up bro

[Brother Michael]

How does your characters skill with a sword and shield progress in Skyrim? Do you block more attacks? Do you wield your sword differently and more efficiently? Oh it just makes number go up so you do a few more points of damage against the damage sponges... I see...

With maximum block, your character can send enemies flying with power bashes and the charge move, and more damage is blocked by the shield. Skyrim has the necessary parts for a good combat system without injecting it with MCO slop, but Bethesda fucked up the balancing as usual. It only takes a few lightweight mods to make it worthwhile to take advantage of these things.

"It's good with mods" isn't a very strong defense... get your block up bro

I never said it was good in the first place, dumbass. Read it again.

[maidenhaver]

Dice rolls were meant to simulate the dynamism of combat while being supported by the player’s imagination. Games are now more capable of representing combat in an engaging way, and should be expected to do so. The ability to build a playstyle around more than just chance to hit is far more interesting.

I can't believe anybody would defend Morrowind's roll to hit, stick man combat, when it was already well surpassed by Gothic's.

[Vergil]

With maximum block, your character can send enemies flying with power bashes and the charge move, and more damage is blocked by the shield. Skyrim has the necessary parts for a good combat system without injecting it with MCO slop, but Bethesda fucked up the balancing as usual. It only takes a few lightweight mods to make it worthwhile to take advantage of these things.

"It's good with mods" isn't a very strong defense... get your block up bro

I never said it was good in the first place, dumbass. Read it again.

(He did)

[Gastrick]

Also would have thought that Starfield would have killed any hype around a modern proc-gen RPG.

No, because the assumption is that Daggerfall devs know how to make the kind of game Starfield should have been.

What are they doing differently then that would make it any better? Know with the original game, the core of it was the pre-made dungeons, with the proc-gen world just being filler to let the player know that it's a large expanse.

[maidenhaver]

The hype was about Daggerfall devs doing Daggerfall 2, taking TES in the direction they would have wanted it to go: wars, multiplayer, presumably better dungeon generation, sailing ships, and more courtly intrigue. It appealed to people who bethesda left behind, and people who want a medieval no man's sky. Julian was late to the hasbeen dev with a kickstarter resurgence, but he did those interviews, saw the views, and probably decided then he'd start one.

[Toadknight]

Nobody remembers Daggerfall for the pre made shit lol.

[Rand]

Even Daggerfall's "pre-made" areas were 10% deliberate constructions after selecting some procedurally generated garbage as a base.
The dungeons are insane mazes with the occasional clearly developer made segment that are still kinda stupid.

[rusty_shackleford]

Procgen stuff was the worst part of daggerfall. If anything, a fan 'remaster' would involve taking daggerfall unity and carving off all the procgen stuff while improving the rest. Just generate one world and begin working from there as a baseline.

[Brother Michael]

56CFD34E-0C5B-475F-8AA7-9213E8E3B0D4.gif (141.58 KiB) Viewed 512 times

[Vergil]

Procgen stuff was the worst part of daggerfall. If anything, a fan 'remaster' would involve taking daggerfall unity and carving off all the procgen stuff while improving the rest. Just generate one world and begin working from there as a baseline.

Is that not how Daggerfall actually worked? People seem to be under the impression the dungeons are generated uniquely for each playthrough when that's not the case.

[rusty_shackleford]

Procgen stuff was the worst part of daggerfall. If anything, a fan 'remaster' would involve taking daggerfall unity and carving off all the procgen stuff while improving the rest. Just generate one world and begin working from there as a baseline.

Is that not how Daggerfall actually worked? People seem to be under the impression the dungeons are generated uniquely for each playthrough when that's not the case.

The dungeons are generated randomly, it snaps together a bunch of premade pieces.

[Rand]

Daggerfall quest dungeons have zero randomness in their layout.
And very little in enemy spawns.
Only the loot is (mostly) randomized.

Plus, they're stupid as shit.
You spend a good chunk of the game trying to find this tomb.
When you do, it's ungodly massive, so nobody could have missed it being constructed.
Worse, while it does have mainly undead and daedra, it's also got orcs, for no good reason.
How they found the place, got past the undead, and are just hanging out in a hidden tomb where nobody ever comes and not just having looted the place is baffling.

[rusty_shackleford]

Daggerfall quest dungeons have zero randomness in their layout.

huh, you're right, no idea why I thought they were randomized

[Rand]

Procgen stuff was the worst part of daggerfall. If anything, a fan 'remaster' would involve taking daggerfall unity and carving off all the procgen stuff while improving the rest. Just generate one world and begin working from there as a baseline.

Is that not how Daggerfall actually worked? People seem to be under the impression the dungeons are generated uniquely for each playthrough when that's not the case.

The dungeons are generated randomly, it snaps together a bunch of premade pieces.

Standard Daggerfall dungeons are generated only semirandomly from a rather small list of prefab components, some quite large.
Three sections are selected and laid out in a connected pattern:

O =  entrance, X = no entrance/exit

                 X     X
OXX     XOX      OX   OX

Or any of the rotations and mirrors.

Each section may be rotated in any of the four directions, and has some points for randomized rooms, but not that many.
There may also be random water levels in the dungeon flooding up to 95% of them, but it's rarely more than the lowest 10 to 20% of the sections.

[Brother Michael]

I think proc gen can be fun, but Daggerfall requires a good deal of imagination. You can get a lot of smaller opportunities for role play instead of story defining choices like in more modern rpgs.



This guy’s videos encouraged me to try it, though I did dump a bunch of mods on it from the start. It’s definitely not for everyone.

[rusty_shackleford]

I think proc gen can be fun, but Daggerfall requires a good deal of imagination. You can get a lot of smaller opportunities for role play instead of story defining choices like in more modern rpgs.



This guy’s videos encouraged me to try it, though I did dump a bunch of mods on it from the start. It’s definitely not for everyone.

He's right that it's fun to play flawed characters.

[Vergil]

What if religion is.... LE BAD??

[Brother Michael]

What if religion is.... LE BAD??

Not really an anti-religion statement tbh. A female pantheon is pretty silly

[Vergil]

What if religion is.... LE BAD??

Not really an anti-religion statement tbh. A female pantheon is pretty silly

I dunno God acts very feminine especially in the old testament. The tree of knowledge is literally a shit test.

[Tweed]

What if religion is.... LE BAD??

Daedra Prince: "Go kill this guy I hate and I'll give you my artifact weapon."

Me: "K."

[rusty_shackleford]

What if religion is.... LE BAD??

"Godesses"

[Tangerine]

What if religion is.... LE BAD??

"Godesses"

It does take multiple women to do the work of one man, even if they are divine.

[Brother Chad]

I look forward to the early access version we'll surely get at the end of this adventure.

[Vergil]

I look forward to the early access version we'll surely get at the end of this adventure.

Early access that's the (unfinished) vertical slice island used to try and get a publisher on board that will never happen and then it stays in a perpetual state of limbo slop citizen style.

[Red7]

im not math autist but for fuck sake, ppl stop confusing randomness with hidden information or causality based uncertainty (new input)

nothing is fucking random and program/machine (by definition deterministic) cannot generate randomness, they just use variable input of time or pattern big enough it seems unpredictable when u look at small part of it.