"barbie dressing" progression. Why?

[J1M]

While people were whinging about transmog, the other (or perhaps overlapping) segment of the playerbase was also whinging and moaning about how hard it is to minmax stats

The problem is that by that point, the game revolved around speedrunning the same current raid over and over again for 6 months. You are running the slot machine for the gear on just that one raid's list. As opposed to the Vanilla progression path where it was okay if you didn't get the BIS gear from Molten Core. The game wasn't just Molten Core. You are just getting some better loot there and then you're going to go on to the next raid, and then the raid after that. Etc. But in Retail WoW where only the current raid matters, there is no next raid to progress to. So the only way to continue progressing is to keep pulling the slot machine and hope you get the BIS from this raid.

and getting right hit rate makes you sacrifice dps stats

WoW was increasingly becoming an action game. It never feels good to press a button and then you miss, like clicking a Cliff Racer 20 times and only hitting twice. Hit rates make sense in slower paced "RPG-ish" MMOs like FF11.

and eventually mechanics too - like threat, etc.

Again this makes sense in a slower paced game, not the extremely fast paced action game that WoW wound up becoming where you lose threat for two seconds and then someone goes from 100% HP to dead just like that. Retail WoW is incredibly bursty.

This isn't about players complaining. It's about the direction the devs took the game towards.

Transmog, from originally reasonable desire to look "cool" in your dungeon/raid set got gradually hijacked by degenerates who just wanted slutmogs on their characters

From what I have seen, the overwhelming vast majority of players are dressed as cool fantasy characters, not in bikinis.

So the whole post went way over your head, got it.
Devs took the game in basically Action/RPG direction (which is a lie, most of those games are just Action) precisely because of the playerbase that was whinging and crying. Now, not everyone was participating in that, but enough people were, and there was likely some pull on dev side to make the game have more "mass appeal". Regardless, this is not what this thread about, it's about RPGs turning into barbie dress-up games and that's what my post is about, so don't feel obliged to defend WoW classic or whatever it is you're trying to defend.

As for "from what I've seen people don't wear bikinis" - ok and? At no point did I say that majority of players do it. Shit like that almost always applies to a minority, just a very vocal one. Additionally, probably looking in the wrong places. While there is some overlap between people who actually do content and degens, it's less likely to run into any of those actually doing content like raids, world bosses, pvp. Look instead around popular "roleplay" spots and you will find them.

Again, point there was not that they are the majority, point was that we've gone from a rather reasonable request from people to be able to use their cool looking gear without sacrificing stats, to many (especially asian) games featuring what basically constitutes statstick gear and separate appearance only outfits (out of which like 90% look like stripper outfits). This is where we enter the slutty barbie dressing game syndrome. Look at games like BDO, PSO2NGS, even GW2 to a degree (although there it's a fight between pervs and dykes, and a normal people minority).

You can't draw that conclusion because Blizzard hasn't added sexy outfits to the game in years. If you wanted to wear something skimpy it would have a 32x32 px texture. (With possible exceptions for real-money store items.)

[mercerxiv]

The problem is that by that point, the game revolved around speedrunning the same current raid over and over again for 6 months. You are running the slot machine for the gear on just that one raid's list. As opposed to the Vanilla progression path where it was okay if you didn't get the BIS gear from Molten Core. The game wasn't just Molten Core. You are just getting some better loot there and then you're going to go on to the next raid, and then the raid after that. Etc. But in Retail WoW where only the current raid matters, there is no next raid to progress to. So the only way to continue progressing is to keep pulling the slot machine and hope you get the BIS from this raid.




WoW was increasingly becoming an action game. It never feels good to press a button and then you miss, like clicking a Cliff Racer 20 times and only hitting twice. Hit rates make sense in slower paced "RPG-ish" MMOs like FF11.




Again this makes sense in a slower paced game, not the extremely fast paced action game that WoW wound up becoming where you lose threat for two seconds and then someone goes from 100% HP to dead just like that. Retail WoW is incredibly bursty.

This isn't about players complaining. It's about the direction the devs took the game towards.




From what I have seen, the overwhelming vast majority of players are dressed as cool fantasy characters, not in bikinis.

So the whole post went way over your head, got it.
Devs took the game in basically Action/RPG direction (which is a lie, most of those games are just Action) precisely because of the playerbase that was whinging and crying. Now, not everyone was participating in that, but enough people were, and there was likely some pull on dev side to make the game have more "mass appeal". Regardless, this is not what this thread about, it's about RPGs turning into barbie dress-up games and that's what my post is about, so don't feel obliged to defend WoW classic or whatever it is you're trying to defend.

As for "from what I've seen people don't wear bikinis" - ok and? At no point did I say that majority of players do it. Shit like that almost always applies to a minority, just a very vocal one. Additionally, probably looking in the wrong places. While there is some overlap between people who actually do content and degens, it's less likely to run into any of those actually doing content like raids, world bosses, pvp. Look instead around popular "roleplay" spots and you will find them.

Again, point there was not that they are the majority, point was that we've gone from a rather reasonable request from people to be able to use their cool looking gear without sacrificing stats, to many (especially asian) games featuring what basically constitutes statstick gear and separate appearance only outfits (out of which like 90% look like stripper outfits). This is where we enter the slutty barbie dressing game syndrome. Look at games like BDO, PSO2NGS, even GW2 to a degree (although there it's a fight between pervs and dykes, and a normal people minority).

You can't draw that conclusion because Blizzard hasn't added sexy outfits to the game in years. If you wanted to wear something skimpy it would have a 32x32 px texture. (With possible exceptions for real-money store items.)

I guess I should have been more clear that when I generalize that bit I'm talking more about MMOs in general rather than specifically WoW. WoW was just an example I used to lay out the order of events for the advance of transmog and therefore barbie dressup meta.

[WaterMage]

Much of the "barbie dressing" comes thanks from WoW. Earlier MMOs like Meridian 59, Ultima Online, and Asheron’s Call emphasized player stats, skill, exploration, and emergent gameplay over item-based progression. If we compare MU Classic with MU Legends, on Mu classic, you couldn't even wear certain items unless you have invested heavily into certain attributes. On Darkfall Online, precision, aiming speed, accuracy, timing, strategy, everything mattered much more than gear.

But was in 2010s where this plague strarted to spread on single player games too.

[Tweed]

Much of the "barbie dressing" comes thanks from WoW. Earlier MMOs like Meridian 59, Ultima Online, and Asheron’s Call emphasized player stats, skill, exploration, and emergent gameplay over item-based progression. If we compare MU Classic with MU Legends, on Mu classic, you couldn't even wear certain items unless you have invested heavily into certain attributes. On Darkfall Online, precision, aiming speed, accuracy, timing, strategy, everything mattered much more than gear.

But was in 2010s where this plague strarted to spread on single player games too.

In early UO nearly all content aside from basic monster killing and pvp was closed off to anyone who wasn't a mage.

[Demonic Fate]

Why do game devs like "Barbie dressing" so much?

Because it allows faggot devs to provide the illusion of depth without any actual depth. If your power derives 90% from gear and 10% from build choices, that means respecing your mistakes is 100% painless. It also prevents retards from making "wrong" builds. Take witcher 3 for example. Your choice in "build" doesn't fucking matter since your damage comes from your sword and your tankiness comes from armor. So you can screw up all you want and the game will still be piss easy.

Mindbogglingly retarded take.

Cheap respecs are what enables players to experiment and figure out a complex system using their own brain. Before they were common, people would use editors and trainers to try out build ideas.

Nobody fucking wants to grind 100 hours only to be told "oops your build is shit and useless, go grind the same 100 hours again". If you do that, like in older MMOs, new players will be warned to slavishly follow build guides instead of engaging with the system on their own.

[Eyestabber]

Why do game devs like "Barbie dressing" so much?

Because it allows faggot devs to provide the illusion of depth without any actual depth. If your power derives 90% from gear and 10% from build choices, that means respecing your mistakes is 100% painless. It also prevents retards from making "wrong" builds. Take witcher 3 for example. Your choice in "build" doesn't fucking matter since your damage comes from your sword and your tankiness comes from armor. So you can screw up all you want and the game will still be piss easy.

Mindbogglingly retarded take.

Cheap respecs are what enables players to experiment and figure out a complex system using their own brain. Before they were common, people would use editors and trainers to try out build ideas.

Nobody fucking wants to grind 100 hours only to be told "oops your build is shit and useless, go grind the same 100 hours again". If you do that, like in older MMOs, new players will be warned to slavishly follow build guides instead of engaging with the system on their own.

I see the point went completely over the newfag's head. In a "barbie dressing" game your "respec" comes from simply equipping a different set of gear. It has nothing to do with actual respecs of a fully fledged character system, you absolute tool. Developers do that because equipping the highest level sword possible is much simpler than figuring out a bunch of different stats as is the case in classic RPGs.

Modern "RPGs" gives the player a plastic steering wheel to pretend like they are driving their character while the developer himself is firmly in control at all times. That way they can ensure a standardized experience for the entire player base at the cost of completely eliminating player choice from the equation. The end result is imbeciles like the one quoted celebrating their newfound "freedom to explore" when in reality they are constrained to a very small walled garden created by the developer. Since most zoomers have zero experience with complex character systems they lack a frame of reference to even realize what was taken from them.

[Xenich]

. Could also be that it is easier to develop around "barbie dressing" than both.

Well, if you look to early 90s games, they had little to no Barbie dressing. And developing a game in that time was much harder.

Barbie dressing mechanics only started to become popular in mmos, after WoW. And in Single player games, around 2010s.

Honestly the only stats on items should be damage and armour. Perhaps buffs for magic items, but make them actually flavoured, not just arbitrary stats.

Magical weapons having unique effects like Gothic 2 - Claw of Beliar is ok.

Yeah, WoW was the biggest driver of this change. Gear progression got silly, yet that carrot is what mainstream wanted and so that became the standard.

Mainstream players think a game is boring with slow even progression, they need constant shiny rewards and massive power boosts.

LoTRO was another example of a system that tried to stray away from that concept, but the players objected to it and wanted "super power up" carrots in progression.

Again, the standard was set.

It is why I dislike console games as they caused the "standards" in design for PC games where most games are just console games now. PC style and design for games is all but extinct these days.

[WaterMage]

Everyone knows that the biggest driver of change in mmos was wow. Pre wow mmos, like Meridian 59, Ultima Online, etc where much less "barbie dressing".

But in single player games, what is the greatest driver of change?

[Eyestabber]

But in single player games, what is the greatest driver of change?

Consoles.

[rusty_shackleford]

But in single player games, what is the greatest driver of change?

Diablo

It's the same as WoW, fyi.

[J1M]

Everyone knows that the biggest driver of change in mmos was wow. Pre wow mmos, like Meridian 59, Ultima Online, etc where much less "barbie dressing".

But in single player games, what is the greatest driver of change?

That term isn't going to stick. Use gear-based progression or something instead. Nobody sees the word Barbie and thinks "ahh yes, gain of function equipment change". It is a synonym for superficial.

[WaterMage]

Diablo

Diablo 1 can be beaten naked. There is even a challenge "beyond naked", where you use CURSED gear. Diablo 2, only become very gear centric in later paths. But Diablo only fully embraced Barbie dressing in Diablo 3.

Even your minions, spells and unarmed attacks scale with your weapon.

Monks literally dematerialize their weapons before punching someone.

Use gear-based progression or something instead.

OK, I will say stat-stickie based progression.

[Lich]

Just because it can be beaten naked doesn't mean it's not overly gear dependent brainlet

[Lhynn]

A barbarian warrior would not last long in a battle against demons and wizards

Why the fuck not? A barbarian on the appropiate level of required experience should be even better at fighting that a wizard. He should be able to see those spells coming a mile away, and he should be able to kill the wizard by throwing a fucking rock at him.
Wizards already get to change reality, may as well allow more grounded classes that are high level to do to demons the exact same thing they did to goblins at low level.
Characters should grow stronger with levels, not weaker, particularly characters completely focused on fighting.

[asf]

it is just console garbage spilling everywhere

[Ranselknulf]

A barbarian warrior would not last long in a battle against demons and wizards

Why the fuck not? A barbarian on the appropiate level of required experience should be even better at fighting that a wizard. He should be able to see those spells coming a mile away, and he should be able to kill the wizard by throwing a fucking rock at him.
Wizards already get to change reality, may as well allow more grounded classes that are high level to do to demons the exact same thing they did to goblins at low level.
Characters should grow stronger with levels, not weaker, particularly characters completely focused on fighting.

Are you a journalist?

my full quote:

"A barbarian warrior would not last long in a battle against demons and wizards without a set of +1 armor and a sturdy battle axe."

[LemonDemonGirl]

Prior to playing V Rising, I've never seen a system like that.

Also, WoW barely has it. You level up via exp, not by wearing different clothing.

However, 'Naked Raids' exist where people remove their armor to make it harder/easier

[J1M]

A barbarian warrior would not last long in a battle against demons and wizards

Why the fuck not? A barbarian on the appropiate level of required experience should be even better at fighting that a wizard. He should be able to see those spells coming a mile away, and he should be able to kill the wizard by throwing a fucking rock at him.
Wizards already get to change reality, may as well allow more grounded classes that are high level to do to demons the exact same thing they did to goblins at low level.
Characters should grow stronger with levels, not weaker, particularly characters completely focused on fighting.

Are you a journalist?

my full quote:

"A barbarian warrior would not last long in a battle against demons and wizards without a set of +1 armor and a sturdy battle axe."

Explain how +1 armor makes the difference. In game terms, not in a novel.

[mercerxiv]

Prior to playing V Rising, I've never seen a system like that

Unfortunately I've ran into stat stick systems before, primarily in asian games but I guess it's making its way over to the West too. The shittiest part is that then the devs just make everyone's "default" armor as ugly as they can get away with and the sell sell sell skins in gambling boxes.

[NotAI]

I'll make a clicker game with Barbie Dressing progression.

Your PC gains power by wearing multiple layers of items.

But you have to click on each item a lot otherwise it disappears.

Equip ancient helmet of war, gloves of power, cuirass of the kraken, leggings of el salvador, boots of swift speed, greaves of the dragon.
Then brilliant dress shirt and magical kilt.
Then camelhair +5 charisma fur coat.
Then paper bag on head. (No eye slits, -10 awareness.)
Each requires 500,5000,50000 clicks per hour, except the greaves, which requite 1000000. Otherwise it goes poof in the listed number of hours and you have to find another. No, you fool, you can't repair.

Game of the year?

After the latest upgrade WoW received, this is meant to be.

[J1M]

Why the fuck not? A barbarian on the appropiate level of required experience should be even better at fighting that a wizard. He should be able to see those spells coming a mile away, and he should be able to kill the wizard by throwing a fucking rock at him.
Wizards already get to change reality, may as well allow more grounded classes that are high level to do to demons the exact same thing they did to goblins at low level.
Characters should grow stronger with levels, not weaker, particularly characters completely focused on fighting.

Are you a journalist?

my full quote:

"A barbarian warrior would not last long in a battle against demons and wizards without a set of +1 armor and a sturdy battle axe."

Explain how +1 armor makes the difference. In game terms, not in a novel.

I guess everyone already knew that +1 armor would just reduce the number of demon attacks that hit by 5%. But not the damage done. And that it wouldn't help against the wizard at all since it doesn't modify fortitude, will, or reflex saves and doesn't increase touch AC.

Truely a game changer.

[Norfleet]

I guess everyone already knew that +1 armor would just reduce the number of demon attacks that hit by 5%. But not the damage done. And that it wouldn't help against the wizard at all since it doesn't modify fortitude, will, or reflex saves and doesn't increase touch AC.

I don't think he meant it quite so literally in D&D terms. Plus, even in D&D, +1 armor doesn't reduce enemy hitrate by 5%. It may, in fact, do absolutely fuck all if their THACO/BAB is high enough that they're at hitrate ceiling in your current armor. If they're already at 115% CTH before cap, -5% isn't gonna do shit, since he'll still be capped out by 95% miss-only-on-1.