Does it make sense for the FNV courier to have low luck?

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rusty_shackleford
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Does it make sense for the FNV courier to have low luck?

Post by rusty_shackleford »

Or perhaps: What constraints should the story impose upon the player's character?

I find it difficult to disagree with the idea that Obsidian binds the player's hands right out of the start with the setup. The bullet missing anything (too) vital, being found, being taken to a skilled doctor in an irradiated wasteland.
I interpret luck in Fallout(and many similar games) as a force that actively warps reality around you. Perhaps there are many ways reality(for the game character) could go(representing other players playing the game), and high luck pushes you towards ones that are good outcomes for your character. Which seems to be about in line with how Fallout itself viewed Luck:
Luck is the odd statistic. It is a combination of fate, karma and, in general, how the universe views you. Luck will modify many things... All characters will benefit from a high Luck, and will suffer a little more with a lower Luck.
What happens to the courier is something I'd describe as highly lucky. And therefore I have trouble ever making a courier that doesn't have a very high luck score, I feel compelled to do this and it's not much of a choice in my eyes.
Perhaps being able to make a character without high luck makes the game more mechanically interesting, but what if the game just assumed the courier was lucky and replaced it with a different characteristic? I think I'd quite prefer this considering the setup Obsidian gives you. :scratch:

Or perhaps moving the character creation to before the setup and having the player respond to their characteristics. A high endurance character pulling themself out of their own grave and hobbling to Goodsprings just to collapse at the (metaphorical) feet of Victor, and so forth.
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Post by The_Mask »

Some people make their own luck. Although, to be 100% fair, you have an excellent point. The game *should* give you a few points exclusively in Luck, given the introductory scenario.
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Post by Acrux »

Does a 1 in Luck equal "no" luck in FNV? If not, I suppose you could make an argument that even a person with the lowest Luck score possible would be lucky at least some times, even if it is an infinitesimally small chance.
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Post by Rigwort »

It seems to me that however unlucky the player is, Benny seems more unlucky. He keeps running into trouble again and again, and it would make sense that in a way he's worse off than even a low-luck player. Then again, it could be argued that taking a dirt nap would be preferable to living in New Vegas.
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Post by agentorange »

It would make sense from the perspective that a CRPG of this style is already a pre-made story that you play through with a pre-made character. The Courier in particular has a lot of established backstory prior to the events of the game, unlike say the Vault Dweller who is a relative blank slate, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to impose some limitations on their stats. Some players would complain of course that they don't have full control over the stat distribution, since having the luck stat start at a higher level would necessarily mean that you get less stat points to spend elsewhere.

It could be done like Planescape: Torment, where giving the Nameless One a very high wisdom score is the "correct" build in the sense that it aligns with the story the developers wanted to tell; it fits the mold of the story that has already been written best and therefore you get to see the deepest, most hidden parts of the story. But, if the player prefer they can go ahead and make a different character that might miss out on some of the deeper levels of the story (with a few options exclusive to making an odd character like that). In the same way they could have the luck stat play a bigger role in the story and dialogue of FNV, with certain key parts of the story requiring the player to have a high luck stat, but you can also go ahead and make a low luck character and miss some of that stuff. Maybe have getting the independent ending require a couple of very high luck checks throughout the game. Since CRPGs are meant to be replayed anyway I don't see an issue with this, and I like games that have a lot of variance in playthroughs anyway (AoD, VTMB, etc.), although now days it seems like most people hate the idea that you can miss out on any content in a first playthrough.
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Post by Bonerstorm »

It would also demonstrate a bad luck that the courier was the 1 in 6 with the platinum chip. That doesn't totally counterbalance being fully functioning after being shot in the head I'll admit. But since the other couriers weren't murdered (at least it wasn't noted) the player really is unlucky.

Also, Benny could have just left the courier alone after having him robbed by the Kahns. The courier was a level 1 nobody - they could have beaten him and taken his goods. Then Mr. House would have nothing to go on, and Benny could have still been by his side. So, bad luck Benny was an idiot.

Also, it's bad luck for the courier when he sells out Googsprings to the Powder Gangers. He can't just take everything. There may be an outcome out of helping the people in Goodsprings - but I'm not sure what that is. I usually just start shooting everyone on most playthroughs.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

@agentorange your point about PST is a good one. I think devs don't put enough emphasis on the importance of the system itself matching the narrative of the game.
Although PST gets a pass because there was no way the game could be made without D&D, and they still made some fantastic decisions like how TNO's leveling & class-swapping is really just him remembering his countless prior lifetime experiences. Which really is an example of a great way to integrate the system of the game into the narrative, despite them having their hands tied in other areas.

Witcher games could technically have just slapped the D20 system on and you could have approximated a Witcher with some weird multiclassing or even a custom Witcher class. But it sure would have been a lot worse than a system designed from the ground up to play as Geralt.
*cough* kotor games *cough*
agentorange wrote: March 16th, 2023, 03:13
The Courier in particular has a lot of established backstory prior to the events of the game,
I think(and could be wrong) you can choose whether most of your past actions happened or not, up until Lonesome Road, which I loathed due to forcing a very specific backstory onto your character.
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Post by Lhynn »

From fallout 1 onwards luck can be affected by external factors. And you arent the only one that has a luck value. Perhaps it wasnt your good luck but Bennys bad luck that you survived, or perhaps one of his men is the unluckiest son of a bitch ever.
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Post by wndrbr »

Courier used to have a high LCK stat, but spent it all on surviving the headshot ordeal.
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Post by Klerik »

Luck stat makes more sense when you have the ability to generate random encounters like in the first 2 games.
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Post by Trithne »

wndrbr wrote: March 16th, 2023, 04:22
Courier used to have a high LCK stat, but spent it all on surviving the headshot ordeal.
This is the answer - If you want to play a low luck Courier, then they simply ran out of luck after getting shot in the head. A high luck Courier still had luck to go around.
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Post by Tweed »

Luck can't save you from all fates and all luck eventually runs out.

A 10mm bullet can still crit you in the eye in a suit of MK2 power armor and kill you.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

wndrbr wrote: March 16th, 2023, 04:22
Courier used to have a high LCK stat, but spent it all on surviving the headshot ordeal.
but you don't spend stats in fallout :scratch:
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Post by wndrbr »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 16th, 2023, 13:07
wndrbr wrote: March 16th, 2023, 04:22
Courier used to have a high LCK stat, but spent it all on surviving the headshot ordeal.
but you don't spend stats in fallout :scratch:
courier has an invisible perk "Ain't that a kick in the head" which reduces character's innate LCK by a certain amount.
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Post by Atlantico »

Player: I walk into the dark alley
DM: A shot rings out from the shadows (rolls hit, rolls damage), you are hit in the right arm for 9 damage.
Player: What, with my luck stat? It's super high!
DM: Your character made a risky and dangerous decision by walking unprepared into the unknown darkness. Luck or no, you get shot at.
Player: Yeah but in my right arm, handicapping my combat abilities, that doesn't sound very lucky.
DM: Could have been in your testicles. Count your blessings.

As for why the Courier survived being shot in the head and surviving, you could call that luck but you could also call it endurance to survive such a shot. Or great strength.

Doesn't have to be luck and even it was, luck only takes you so far and determining whether you survive being actually shot in the head where you kneel bound and gagged. You're not really an active participant of that situation, more a passive participant like a patient under anesthesia. I'd lay the blame on the Benny who shot the Courier and his inability to to a simple thing than luck or luck stats.
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Post by BlueMemphis »

Put me in the high luck camp, surviving getting shot in the head with brain damage being optional (if you only put 1 in int) sounds the very definition of lucky.
Actually scratch that, if you are brain damaged or have any other stat at 1 yet are still able to clear even just the New Vegas story then that how else can you explain it besides you being the luckiest sonuvabitch ever? Throw in every other optional quest the pc can do and whilst it can be argued the pc is unlucky for always finding himself in dangerous situations the fact he always walks away without permanent damage shows there is someone watching over him (the stranger?).

Also in general just being able to find ammo and vital supplies just lying around in a wasteland that should be scoured clean by this point is more proof of good fortune.

I do like the idea though that it's actually one of the khans who had maxed out luck or Benny who has 1 luck.
For the khan though it would rely on the assumption the courrier negotiated a safe passage for them at boulder city and doesn't kill off the khan faction but it could work.
For Benny it's like life itself decided to flip him off, first you survived being shot in bloody head, second you just walk up to him in the casino not only making him rush his plans but utterly ousting him from his place of power. And then what happens? He gets caught when sneaking through the legion (can't remember if it was because his stealth boy circuited out or because he was caught in uniform), just his rotten luck and the perfect cap to a really shitty week/month for him.
That your courier can then have him crucified is just the icing on the bad luck cake.
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Post by Shillitron »

> Be me
> Typical Mojave Courier
> Given an assignment with 4 other dudes to deliver random knickknacks
> Guy next to me wearing bane mask swaps places with me
> Given platinum Chip
> just-another-job.jpg
> cornered in a graveyard by some faggot and his two drug addict friends
> get shot in the head


"The Courier is so lucky isn't he?"
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 13:34
> Be me
> Typical Mojave Courier
> Given an assignment with 4 other dudes to deliver random knickknacks
> Guy next to me wearing bane mask swaps places with me
> Given platinum Chip
> just-another-job.jpg
> cornered in a graveyard by some faggot and his two drug addict friends
> get shot in the head


"The Courier is so lucky isn't he?"
> end up becoming one of the most powerful persons in the world due to a series of unlikely events

Yes.
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Post by Bonerstorm »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 17:15
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 13:34
> Be me
> Typical Mojave Courier
> Given an assignment with 4 other dudes to deliver random knickknacks
> Guy next to me wearing bane mask swaps places with me
> Given platinum Chip
> just-another-job.jpg
> cornered in a graveyard by some faggot and his two drug addict friends
> get shot in the head


"The Courier is so lucky isn't he?"
> end up becoming one of the most powerful persons in the world due to a series of unlikely events

Yes.
Seeing as: only 7.3% of folks complete https://steamcommunity.com/stats/Fallou ... ievements/ the game and get the Eureka! achievement (side with the NCR and make it to Hoover Dam) or lets just say 10% of people finish the game with any ending, equating the players end state with the players luck is a stretch. 90% of couriers won't make it to the end!

Also, Veronica is a lesbian, Cass is hot but has a potty mouth, and there aren't enough legion quests. Verdict: unlucky!
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Post by Lhynn »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 17:15
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 13:34
> Be me
> Typical Mojave Courier
> Given an assignment with 4 other dudes to deliver random knickknacks
> Guy next to me wearing bane mask swaps places with me
> Given platinum Chip
> just-another-job.jpg
> cornered in a graveyard by some faggot and his two drug addict friends
> get shot in the head


"The Courier is so lucky isn't he?"
> end up becoming one of the most powerful persons in the world due to a series of unlikely events

Yes.
Powerful in the sense that the courier is pretty much unstoppable. I dont think thats due to the unlikely events or the bullet, the courier probably had greatness in him and would have ended up being a walking disaster sooner or later.
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Post by The_Mask »

The Courier is lucky because of the PipBoy they have.

Convince me otherwise.
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Post by Shillitron »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 17:15
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 13:34
> Be me
> Typical Mojave Courier
> Given an assignment with 4 other dudes to deliver random knickknacks
> Guy next to me wearing bane mask swaps places with me
> Given platinum Chip
> just-another-job.jpg
> cornered in a graveyard by some faggot and his two drug addict friends
> get shot in the head


"The Courier is so lucky isn't he?"
> end up becoming one of the most powerful persons in the world due to a series of unlikely events

Yes.
> The player character wins the game

So every game ever made ever?
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 21:31
rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 17:15
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 13:34
> Be me
> Typical Mojave Courier
> Given an assignment with 4 other dudes to deliver random knickknacks
> Guy next to me wearing bane mask swaps places with me
> Given platinum Chip
> just-another-job.jpg
> cornered in a graveyard by some faggot and his two drug addict friends
> get shot in the head


"The Courier is so lucky isn't he?"
> end up becoming one of the most powerful persons in the world due to a series of unlikely events

Yes.
> The player character wins the game

So every game ever made ever?
There are plenty of games where you don't become as powerful as the courier in FNV, and many not through a very unlikely sequence of events.
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Post by Shillitron »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 21:55
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 21:31
rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 17:15


> end up becoming one of the most powerful persons in the world due to a series of unlikely events

Yes.
> The player character wins the game

So every game ever made ever?
There are plenty of games where you don't become as powerful as the courier in FNV, and many not through a very unlikely sequence of events.
Name a 30 - 40 hour roleplaying game that you don't become all powerful and "win".
How powerful does the courier really even get.. are you talking canonically within the world.. or how min/maxed you can juice your character mechanically?

Are we in for a Rusty-Copium episode 2 boogaloo?
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 23:20
Name a 30 - 40 hour roleplaying game that you don't become all powerful and "win".
VtMB. You were never powerful, you were being used as a pawn by someone significantly more powerful than you. This would be an example of bad luck, the main character from VtMB is probably fucked after the game ends due to your actions unless someone decides to take a special interest in protecting them.
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 23:20
How powerful does the courier really even get.. are you talking canonically within the world.. or how min/maxed you can juice your character mechanically?
As the obviously correct ending to FNV is the House ending, you're the right-hand man of the most powerful(and immortal) man in the world, meaning you're the second most important person alive. Not a bad step up from a guy who used to deliver packages.
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Post by Shillitron »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 21st, 2023, 23:35
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 23:20
Name a 30 - 40 hour roleplaying game that you don't become all powerful and "win".
VtMB. You were never powerful, you were being used as a pawn by someone significantly more powerful than you. This would be an example of bad luck, the main character from VtMB is probably fucked after the game ends due to your actions unless someone decides to take a special interest in protecting them.
Shillitron wrote: March 21st, 2023, 23:20
How powerful does the courier really even get.. are you talking canonically within the world.. or how min/maxed you can juice your character mechanically?
As the obviously correct ending to FNV is the House ending, you're the right-hand man of the most powerful(and immortal) man in the world, meaning you're the second most important person alive. Not a bad step up from a guy who used to deliver packages.
Doesn't House sort of allude to the fact that your a ponzi after helping him..?
The house ending is basically, House takes over Las Vegas & Hoover Damn and rules it with his securitrons.. and depending on your karma.. you just hang out at the hotel and fuck his computer wife I guess?? There's no real glory.. your kinda a foot note.

Even the Yes-Man ending has a sort of ominous undertone (IMO) about him making himself "more assertive".. as if he's not gonna be taking orders from you much longer..

and in VTMB don't you kill like everyone? You basically end up killing Ming-Xiao?? (Chinese Demon chick) and LaCroix (I guess he sorta kills himself but your directly related to his death)
That's hardly a "nobody"

This is getting a little copey.. try again.

edit - to be clear, I think both games leave you in a similar state - your a snowflake who did some cool shit but your story is over and your kinda a foot note in the grand scheme of things. (It's a mixture of trying to make the player feel cool, but letting developers not have to give a shit about your accomplishments in future games)
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Post by Tweed »

Shillitron wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 01:40
Even the Yes-Man ending has a sort of ominous undertone (IMO) about him making himself "more assertive".. as if he's not gonna be taking orders from you much longer..
No, what he meant was that he was going to reprogram himself to only take orders from you and if you don't believe me you can look it up. :smug:
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Post by Shillitron »

Tweed wrote: March 22nd, 2023, 04:22
No, what he meant was that he was going to reprogram himself to only take orders from you and if you don't believe me you can look it up. :smug:


K but he doesn't say that..??
Lol.. Did you just make that up or am I crazy?

Seriously though.. watch that video.. doesn't that sort come off as a little sinister?

"I didn't wanna make big deal about this until after we won..."
"I found some code snippets in Mr houses databanks to make me more.. assertive.. basically.. and stuff.."
"Don't worry.. everything will be Okay!"

--
<headlarp>
This dialogue makes me think two things:

"Yes Man is sarcastically saying he's gonna become more assertive.. but don't worry about it courier bro ;)))"

Or

Assuming New Vegas was playable after Hoover Dam.. it was a justification for why the Securitrons would revert to their default faces and Yes-Man wouldn't be available to talk to anymore since he was "offline" reprogramming himself.. and if you started murdering people, why the securitrons would go hostile?
</headlarp>

EDIT
It could be to make him more assertive and less prone to betraying you as well. That wasn't how I interpreted it when playing though.. I thought they were doing a nudge nudge wink wink sorta joke about it.
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