How do you fix a role shortage in MMOs and other online games?

[J1M]

You don't need the lowest common denominator to switch. You just need the small portion of the total population that is tank-curious to feel it is worth trying.

[Xenich]

It's fundamentally impossible, because humans are problem solving creatures.

Group tasks will ALWAYS have a solution that is optimal, and people will look for it. It is unlikely that anyone will have a possibly far higher damage output class focus on distraction / control versus something with a lower damage output, but higher health / mitigation class

Simply because it's illogical.

You can offer diversity in solutions in single player games, and to a lesser extent in online games, but people will always maximise efficiency; and in online games the social reinforcement and expectation will punish people who do not act in this way.

Nothing wrong with that, but people demand a role to be attached to that "optimal solution".

Monks in EQ were far better at rampage tanking than mitigation tanks, but this angered the self proclaimed "tank roles" because they believed all damage taking was supposed to be a tanks job. The idea of a class who could do good damage, but also tank well in specific situations caused envy even though it was limited and situational. A tank was a tank, a DPS was DPS, a healer was healer and none shall cross the line!

People weren't interested in optimal solutions, they were interested in forcing game play to their perception of what it should be. While some class balancing is justified (ie overpowering content, contrary to developer intent, etc...) a lot of it has been at the behest of the mob demanding classes fit into neat little containers.

Warriors crying about hybrids in EQ is why hybrids were near useless for anything in WoW at launch beyond healing.
The issue in EQ was warriors weren't good at doing damage, not hybrids.

I think hybrids were only a problem because they tried to force all the classes into those limited roles. When they organized in that way, all of the additional abilities of hybrids became an issue over time which caused constant nerfs/buffs trying to balance equality to a metric that did not provide equality between them. Same happened with healers and other classes, such as monks which did not neatly fit into those roles.

Thing is, the players pushed the roles and developers catered to it. People refused to see classes as having various tools for different situations that could be applied in different ways between the classes and saw everything through a singular focus.

I used to see arguments about breaking everything down to just damage and healing and people saying that is all that really mattered. Subtle tools, skills, and applications were often dismissed to focus on that concept. Best tank, best healer, best damage... people wanted to be "the best" at something and combined with that social push for "roles", the arguments and complaints always centered around it.

Not a surprise that WoW and most MMOs are what they are today. People wanted it, they demanded it.

Well, that is how it appeared to me. /shrug

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Thing is, the players pushed the roles and developers catered to it. People refused to see classes as having various tools for different situations that could be applied in different ways between the classes and saw everything through a singular focus.

I think one issue is that in any game with a large number of classes (FF11 Horizon has 15 classes, WoW has 38 specs, EVE Online with 300+ ships and Star Citizen with 200+ ships) or playable characters (ie, LoL with 170 characters) is that there is an enormous amount information to learn about the capabilities of that class, be it them as teammates or as enemies you may be confronting. In games a huge amount of time investment required to level up a class like in FF11, it is impractical to play every class. WoW has class trials where you can test out how each class plays 10 levels below the current level cap which can give you a better idea, but usually it is just not practical for the player to have first hand experience with every class, which means they have to rely on someone else giving them a summary of that class. Seeing 5 bullet point lines for 38 specs would be too much information to remember, so we just get "that class can tank" as the most efficient way to share knowledge.

[Norfleet]

I used to see arguments about breaking everything down to just damage and healing and people saying that is all that really mattered. Subtle tools, skills, and applications were often dismissed to focus on that concept. Best tank, best healer, best damage... people wanted to be "the best" at something and combined with that social push for "roles", the arguments and complaints always centered around it.

The more "Stats Driven" the game becomes, the more this tendency is exacerbated. If your game becomes increasingly around whacking monsters until their HP drops to zero, you will naturally see this. This was apparent in one MUD I played, for instance: People had gotten into this firm DPS-based meta with a specific team composition of classes, skills, and weapons intended to beat a certain specific mob. But I thought of something completely different: A new approach to things, based around an entirely different stat: Free Carry Weight. Naturally, my proposal was ridiculed. Right up until I did it. Sure, the ensuing explosion wiped killed half the team, but it turned a 30 minute fight into 5 second fight, and it was really their own fault for not listening.

Naturally, the admins were not exactly fond of the new Aloha Snackbar meta.

[TKVNC]

Classless gameplay such as mount and blade, or even (soft classless) morrowind is arguably the solution.

Give people a finite number, but an infinite selection as it were; respecs that are trivial, such as gold or whatever it may be; and, then have no gear restrictions, but just gear that applies nerfs accordingly, such as heavier makes you slower.

This would likely remove a lot of the issues, as then you can simply be whatever seems fun at the time.

[Norfleet]

Classless gameplay such as mount and blade, or even (soft classless) morrowind is arguably the solution.

Give people a finite number, but an infinite selection as it were; respecs that are trivial, such as gold or whatever it may be; and, then have no gear restrictions, but just gear that applies nerfs accordingly, such as heavier makes you slower.

This would likely remove a lot of the issues, as then you can simply be whatever seems fun at the time.

It won't. Even if respecs are effectively cheap-as-free, if gear is nontrivial, or even just the process of rellocating your build is annoying, people will resist switching. It's also predicated on the idea that roles are deemed "fun" in anything close to the correct proportions. If you have a 5-man team demanding an enforced 3/1/1 spread as is incredibly common, it means your game's population needs to be roughly in line with that spread. It NEVER IS, because you're not gonna find 20% of the population wanting to play Healers and Tanks. Healer's a shit job that very few people like. Tanks are even worse: Not only does it generally play like a shitty version of DPS, but only the sweatiest and most geared players can even do it effectively, because you can't have an underequipped tank. And that's just it: Developers are consistently so out of touch that they believe the percentage of players who will play traditionally unpopular roles is as high as 20%. All their fancy "data analytics" tells them this, and they still never learn from it.

[TKVNC]

Classless gameplay such as mount and blade, or even (soft classless) morrowind is arguably the solution.

Give people a finite number, but an infinite selection as it were; respecs that are trivial, such as gold or whatever it may be; and, then have no gear restrictions, but just gear that applies nerfs accordingly, such as heavier makes you slower.

This would likely remove a lot of the issues, as then you can simply be whatever seems fun at the time.

It won't. Even if respecs are effectively cheap-as-free, if gear is nontrivial, or even just the process of rellocating your build is annoying, people will resist switching. It's also predicated on the idea that roles are deemed "fun" in anything close to the correct proportions. If you have a 5-man team demanding an enforced 3/1/1 spread as is incredibly common, it means your game's population needs to be roughly in line with that spread. It NEVER IS, because you're not gonna find 20% of the population wanting to play Healers and Tanks. Healer's a shit job that very few people like. Tanks are even worse: Not only does it generally play like a shitty version of DPS, but only the sweatiest and most geared players can even do it effectively, because you can't have an underequipped tank. And that's just it: Developers are consistently so out of touch that they believe the percentage of players who will play traditionally unpopular roles is as high as 20%. All their fancy "data analytics" tells them this, and they still never learn from it.

The point is, as per Warband, you aren't actually anything. Maybe you're just carrying a shield, a spear, and a bow. Or perhaps a bow and healing magic.

The point is, without defined classes and gear built for them, players are incentivised to problem solve.

Once you have tank / healer / dps specific gear you've already failed. That does not encourage any thought, just a time investment to accumulate said equipment.

[Stack of Turtles]

TBH, just let people get paid to do jobs.

[Oyster Sauce]

TBH, just let people get paid to do jobs.

LF1M healer BRD all greens res

[A Chinese opium den]

I don't want to play tank, if the game forces me to I'll just throw or not play.

[Vergil]

I propose that if a queue lasts for 5 minutes or longer for the servers to begin drafting people at random as tanks. Doesn't matter what your spec is. Are you a Warlock? You get a 500% HP and DEF buff and aggro stance slapped on you and a temporary taunt button. You will tank or you will get banned for 10 days. Now start pulling!

I guess this is a cool back door fix to kill the dungeon finder forever.

[Oyster Sauce]

I don't want to play tank, if the game forces me to I'll just throw or not play.

Playing tank makes me feel powerful, regal, respected, feared

[Tadeusz]

Lineage 2 has subclass system which allows to change classes for a character. You still have to get your main class to level 75 to get a subclass though. It also has transformations which allow to temporarily become some creature with a limited amount of skills so for example a player can become a healer for a limited amount of time.
Combat also may not revolve around classical roles and be instead focused on dodging like in Lost Ark. There are some more tanky and clericy classes but they also have combat capabilities.

[rusty_shackleford]

I liked tanking in EQ on my ranger, even had its own niche because it had the fastest hate generation in the game via flame lick. Wasn't nearly as sturdy as a paladin or something, but being able to actually hold monster aggro(and quickly) was its own benefit.


Also, I tanked all the 5man content + T4 raids as a moonkin in TBC. It didn't really have any advantage, we were just bored.

[Vergil]

I don't want to play any role with a highly likelihood of being yelled at

[NotAI]

Even better than hybrids: modes.

As in, PC can transform from A mode into B mode. Then from B mode into A mode.

More things to lvl up anyway, and plenty of people like progress, do they not?

Actually, this does work. Just remembered Panzer Dragoon Saga did this, specifically to allow the player to tank when needed to win a type of battle that requires a tank.

[rusty_shackleford]

Even better than hybrids: modes.

As in, PC can transform from A mode into B mode. Then from B mode into A mode.

More things to lvl up anyway, and plenty of people like progress, do they not?

FFXI does this with job switching, but unlike FFXIV you have to go all the way back to your moghouse to do it. FFXIV ruined it by allowing you to swap on the fly

[asf]

in more civilized times mmos main goal was to grief, not to kill boring npcs

[Norfleet]

The point is, as per Warband, you aren't actually anything. Maybe you're just carrying a shield, a spear, and a bow. Or perhaps a bow and healing magic.

The point is, without defined classes and gear built for them, players are incentivised to problem solve.

Even without defined classes and gear specifically made for them, players will invent classes on their own. Spear + Shield = tank build, for instance. You're certainly not tanking with a bow, that's for sure. So unless you have only ONE spear and shield, you have "spear that has no real reason to exist beyond being trash for noobs", "better spear that still serves no real purpose", "BIS spear". And unless you have the latter, you're effectively wasting your time trying to tank due to tank being the most equipment-sensitive role. And, of course, unless you grind the relevant skills to use these items, you are not functional with them.

Once you have tank / healer / dps specific gear you've already failed. That does not encourage any thought, just a time investment to accumulate said equipment.

And if accumulating said equipment is not a trivial exercise, a player has effectively defined his semi-permanent class by what he HAS put effort into acquiring. The average player is not gonna chase sidegrade progression and will just play whatever is the "DPS Build".

[Norfleet]

Playing tank makes me feel powerful, regal, respected, feared

Only if you're anything close to best-in-slot gear level. Otherwise you're a waste of air, because an underequipped tank is basically useless.

[Classix]

I almost exclusively tank in everything I play. Get the best of what I can every chance I get, macros are always set up in advance for when the skills become available, I set the pace, short queues, faster clear times, love it. Having double everyone else's health and still topping damage with zero aggro issues is just satisfying. Using proper line of sight aggroing to bunch everything up is an art. I don't trust rando tanks on games anymore so I just do it myself.

[Xenich]

Should any party type, if they are clever and accept the risks be able to take on content without applying the traditional "trinity" approach?

When this was done in the past, it usually brought about anger in the community claiming it "circumvented" proper game play and demands for nerfs or buffs to content were made.

[Stack of Turtles]

Should any party type, if they are clever and accept the risks be able to take on content without applying the traditional "trinity" approach?

When this was done in the past, it usually brought about anger in the community claiming it "circumvented" proper game play and demands for nerfs or buffs to content were made.

That's insane and anyone who complained should be shot.

[Xenich]

Should any party type, if they are clever and accept the risks be able to take on content without applying the traditional "trinity" approach?

When this was done in the past, it usually brought about anger in the community claiming it "circumvented" proper game play and demands for nerfs or buffs to content were made.

That's insane and anyone who complained should be shot.

A lot of the nerfs I saw to classes and abilities over the years in EQ would often result from complaints that it was unfair that a class(es) could apply such a solution outside of the traditional approach. While some nerfs may have been reasonable depending on the issue, some were simply complaints that the approach fell outside of "traditional" play and therefore by allowing it detracted from the role of a given class.

[Norfleet]

A lot of the nerfs I saw to classes and abilities over the years in EQ would often result from complaints that it was unfair that a class(es) could apply such a solution outside of the traditional approach. While some nerfs may have been reasonable depending on the issue, some were simply complaints that the approach fell outside of "traditional" play and therefore by allowing it detracted from the role of a given class.

That's generally how it is, yes. Developers, and players who buy into the traditional model, do not like creative solutions that upend the paradigm. This is why so few games offer a physics engine, because anytime you put a physics engine in the game, you're just asking for someone to figure out how to solve the problem using physics instead.