Where are games like Doom (1993)?

[fork]

Where are the games like Doom?

There've been tens (probably hundreds?) of thousands of games since the original Doom, probably the best game of all times, yet a negligible percentage of them have managed to come even close to the simplistic perfection and infinite replayability of it. There are still new wads released every year, and eventhough many of them are trash, they still get me more excited than any new release, indie, AA or AAA.

WTF is going on?

And no, it's not nostalgia, jews.

[fork]

[Oyster Sauce]

Most Oblivious Video Gamesman Award

[fork]

Explain why not a single Doom clone (basically all FPSs) achieves the satisfying gameplay the original did in 1993.
Even mediocre Doom campaigns are more gripping than all of the "boomer shooters" combined.

[Cipher]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2005 ... 0_Boltgun/

This one is an OG Doom clone with a WH40K shirt on. It's really fun. This is one on the top of my head but I've seen a lot of these over the years.

EDIT: Here is the trailer:

[rusty_shackleford]

I assume he means games with a similar lasting impact on gaming with a continued fanbase decades later, rather than literally "games like Doom"

[fork]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2005 ... 0_Boltgun/

This one is an OG Doom clone with a WH40K shirt on. It's really fun. This is one on the top of my head but I've seen a lot of these over the years.

EDIT: Here is the trailer:

Yes, I know, it's shit.
Like the Quake clones like Dusk are shit.

I assume he means games with a similar lasting impact on gaming with a continued fanbase decades later, rather than literally "games like Doom"

Yes and no.
Doom is over 30 years old now, and people still play it, mod it and love it — for a reason! It's just more fun than any other single-player FPS ever released. For me personally, the latter part is more important, but I guess in this case, the former plays a role as well.

[fork]

I have a good idea why it is as great, fun and timeless as it is btw, but it's nowhere near conclusive.

You would think that for a game to remain this relevant and fun for such a long time, even in mediocre iterations (most wads), it would have to be perfect in every conceivable way from the very start. But it wasn't and it isn't. The original lacks the SSG, Doom 2's level design is sub-par, TNT is mediocre in most ways, Plutonia has a forgettable soundtrack, while Perdition's Gate is almost entirely carried by the OST. But I love every single one of them.

So what is it, exactly?
The skill required in order to beat progressively difficult campaigns/wads (movement, spatial awareness, "gunplay") probably plays an important role, since most other aspects differ significantly from one iteration to the other.

[Norfleet]

I assume he means games with a similar lasting impact on gaming with a continued fanbase decades later, rather than literally "games like Doom"

There are lots, obviously: XCom, Civ, etc.. Plenty of games have effectively defined their own genres and are thus as at least as impactful as Doom.

[fork]

I assume he means games with a similar lasting impact on gaming with a continued fanbase decades later, rather than literally "games like Doom"

There are lots, obviously: XCom, Civ, etc.. Plenty of games have effectively defined their own genres and are thus as at least as impactful as Doom.

Agreed.

Debatable whether any one (or how many/which ones) of them has as lasting an impact as Doom, but that's not the point. The point is that they're an extremely small minority of all games ever released, that the vast majority of them are decades old, and that—as time progresses—there are fewer and fewer of them, both relative to total number of games released per time as well as in absolute numbers.

I simply chose Doom because I love FPSs, played a huge number of them over the years, the IP is still around (worse than ever, like the whole genre), we're past the retro-shooter wave, which did nothing for me, because I love the original more and more every time I replay it... in short because it's one of the best and most obvious examples, and because it's such a simple game. You'd think there'd be many different easy ways to improve upon the formula, but turns out there aren't.

[ThulsaDoomer]

My opinion of Doom is perhaps against the grain, but I find it painfully mediocre. At the time, sure, it defined a new era of gaming, but the reality is that its music track list is straddling the line of plagiarism, the level design veers far too much into maze wandering than sane, easily defined levels, and while shooting cyber demons is indeed timeless, that's all there is.

I have a fairly high opinion of Hedon of which I am replaying again at the moment. Good level design, puzzles are hit or miss but they're a lot easier in a sane level design compared to Dooms or some other older FPS where I can actually coherently say yes, this is a medieval fort. I cannot tell you what Doom's levels are meant to be. I know what the game tells me they are. Beyond that there's a reason why FPS exploded even more when they started depicting more real environments. Duke Nukem 3D comes to mind.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I lost interest in many modern FPS and obviously why I am playing Hedon, a gzdoom one man autistic project, and not Call of Duty, Fortnite, or whatever other trash exists. I just don't feel that Doom deserves to be on such a high pedestal. Yes, it set the mold and opened the doorway for innovation. It's easy to jump into and bang out some levels on pretty much any device. It's just not the pinnacle of all gaming and some people have improved the formula. I don't care for nostalgia much, I care about an enjoyable experience.

[Arilando]

Half-Life happened, and the vast majority of later FPS games took their inspiration from Half-Life (fairly slow paced gameplay, emphasis on reloading, cover, aiming, "realism", etc), not Doom or Quake.

[Vergil]

Doom 2 (1994)

[fork]

Half-Life happened, and the vast majority of later FPS games took their inspiration from Half-Life (fairly slow paced gameplay, emphasis on reloading, cover, aiming, "realism", etc), not Doom or Quake.

It's irrelevant which game they took inspiration from, other than they wouldn't exist without Doom (there are more Doom clones than HL clones btw.).
What's relevant to this discussion is that they're all inferior to Doom, no matter the "inspiration".

Doom 2 (1994)

k, thread is dead.

[Vergil]

k, thread is dead.

Yes and no.
Doom is over 30 years old now, and people still play it, mod it and love it — for a reason! It's just more fun than any other single-player FPS ever released.

Have you tried the Serious Sam games? The First and Second Encounter are classics for a reason and they're extremely moddable if you take a look at the Steam workshop page.

If you mean influential games no one has been able to quite replicate even single attempt by another developer besides Bethesda to make their own Skyrim or Fallout has ended in utter disaster.

[fork]

If you mean influential games no one has been able to quite replicate even single attempt by another developer besides Bethesda to make their own Skyrim or Fallout has ended in utter disaster.

Yup, the question is, why? And they couldn't even replicate it, as you said, which should be a no-brainer, let alone surpass it (Skyrim is a terrible example, btw).
In the case of relatively complex RPGs, it's a bit easier to answer (still incredible and near inexplicable though) than with simple games like Doom.

[asf]

fork is retarded

[Vergil]

Yup, the question is, why?

I think there are some things you simply can't teach other people to replicate. When you look at stuff like TES or especially Doom there's much smaller teams who seem to largely be in lock step with each other as to what the unified vision for the games should be. With giant developers hiring retards you have a bunch of people who aren't on the same page nor are they competent enough to actually make something good anyway.
Not even Bethesda can make good Bethesda games anymore with how bloated and discombobulated the dev teams have become.

[rusty_shackleford]

Average developer also has a very shallow understanding of video games now, too. Especially games that aren't on consoles.
Programmers tend to have a much wider experience than designers e.g.,

https://www.sandfall.co/team

median release year of favorite game of programmers: 2004
median release year of favorite game of designers: 2015

If non-techies have played games more than a couple years old, it's always things like super mario 64 or FF7 or some shit

[Norfleet]

Debatable whether any one (or how many/which ones) of them has as lasting an impact as Doom, but that's not the point. The point is that they're an extremely small minority of all games ever released, that the vast majority of them are decades old, and that—as time progresses—there are fewer and fewer of them, both relative to total number of games released per time as well as in absolute numbers.

That's completely understandable: The search space only contains a finite number of points. As more of the space is explored, there are fewer and fewer new breakthrough to be had, and most of the low-hanging fruit was found in the past. As such, games, technolergy, anything, becomes increasingly derivative as time goes on. In prehistoric times, discovering the concept of "rock" or "fire" was revolutionary and new. Nowadays, these things have already been found and you're going to have to work a lot harder to come up with something new. Combining "rock" with "stick" is no longer considered a novelty.

[Arilando]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2005 ... 0_Boltgun/

This one is an OG Doom clone with a WH40K shirt on. It's really fun. This is one on the top of my head but I've seen a lot of these over the years.

EDIT: Here is the trailer:

Yes, I know, it's shit.
Like the Quake clones like Dusk are shit.

I assume he means games with a similar lasting impact on gaming with a continued fanbase decades later, rather than literally "games like Doom"

Yes and no.
Doom is over 30 years old now, and people still play it, mod it and love it — for a reason! It's just more fun than any other single-player FPS ever released. For me personally, the latter part is more important, but I guess in this case, the former plays a role as well.

I find Quake more enjoyable to playthrough personally. It has much more consistent level design. Doom episodes 2 and 3 are really not that good. But Doom has better mods.

[Arilando]

Half-Life happened, and the vast majority of later FPS games took their inspiration from Half-Life (fairly slow paced gameplay, emphasis on reloading, cover, aiming, "realism", etc), not Doom or Quake.

It's irrelevant which game they took inspiration from, other than they wouldn't exist without Doom (there are more Doom clones than HL clones btw.).
What's relevant to this discussion is that they're all inferior to Doom, no matter the "inspiration".

Doom 2 (1994)

k, thread is dead.

Counter-Strike is an HL clone, and most realistic shooters are inspired by it (or other games that were inspired by counter-strike, or half-life, or both), so i would have to disagree.

[maidenhaver]

Gaming was edgy and doing things nobody'd seen.

[sheet]

I mean... Heretic was made on the Doom engine and was also published by id. It's a very well made game. It added some more dynamic monster types and storeable power-ups instead of everything activating on pickup.
The follow up HeXen also did some things with "RPG elements" and hubbed levels, but much of that was to its detriment.

[rustys-name-is-kumar]

quake 1 shits on doom

[Eyestabber]

I assume he means games with a similar lasting impact on gaming with a continued fanbase decades later, rather than literally "games like Doom"

He means no other game was as impactful as the one that defined the fucking genre? I'm shocked let me tell ya. Also "lasting impact on gaming" => Call of Duty.

[Element]

Doom 2, Heretic, Hexen, Blood, Powerslave etc.
We breezed past the pseudo-3d into actual 3d too quickly for too many titles to appear, and 3d heralded increased focus on graphical fidelity which in turn lent itself better to more streamlined, linear levels. As such level design craftsmanship was quietly shelved.

[Arilando]

Doom 2, Heretic, Hexen, Blood, Powerslave etc.
We breezed past the pseudo-3d into actual 3d too quickly for too many titles to appear, and 3d heralded increased focus on graphical fidelity which in turn lent itself better to more streamlined, linear levels. As such level design craftsmanship was quietly shelved.

Quake had better (and often non-linear) levels than Doom (and basically all shooters that came after it), so i have hard time accepting that idea.

[KnightoftheWind]

I'd argue that only the first episode of Doom was truly great, after that it was just varying levels of decent-to-bad. The mod scene is where it's at, and where excellent games like the Ashes Trilogy are born. Quake is in a similar situation, where the modding community actively improves on the game in drastic ways. Arcane Dimensions is so good it's the default Quake experience for me.

But despite how impressive Quake is on a technical level, it doesn't do enough to progress the genre from the Doom template. That's where competing games like Duke Nukem 3D innovate far more, with environments that look more realistic, and with objects you can interact with.

[Element]

Doom 2, Heretic, Hexen, Blood, Powerslave etc.
We breezed past the pseudo-3d into actual 3d too quickly for too many titles to appear, and 3d heralded increased focus on graphical fidelity which in turn lent itself better to more streamlined, linear levels. As such level design craftsmanship was quietly shelved.

Quake had better (and often non-linear) levels than Doom (and basically all shooters that came after it), so i have hard time accepting that idea.

I consider it the outlier. In 1996 it was up against Strife, Powerslave, ND3D and one of the marathon games. By 1998 its Shogo and Half Life. 2000 it's Soldier of Fortune, NOLF and Daikatana..
Though I don't consider Doom 1 the apex of the genre, and frankly prefer the PSX attempt to spin it into a horror game with the change in music and the lighting. The keycard hunting is more congruent with the experience.